Comments:
ref 472x subsecond dial
some advice for ref.4724
Hello everyone.
Recently bought an antique VC, ref.4724. It has a huge case, 37mm. Large straight and curved legs. The most attractive is the dial： "guilloche" silver, vertical line at the center, two circular extermal lines, with applied gold lozenge indexes and Arabic numerals. Yellow gold "Baton" hands.
I found that the dial was identical, whether it was on sale or for the record of the auction .
There are many changes in the antique VC dial, but I compare the results of the three auctions with the one I bought，they are all the same.According to this, I guess the VC production quantity of this model is very low.
Is there any more information? Is there any other kind of dial with ref.4724?
I'm here waiting for your help.
I don't know anything about the watch but it's one of the nicest vintage VC I've seen [nt]
No message body
I love the dial!
You really have an exciting piece. Congratulations!
You already know a lot about your piece. All is know is:
- it has been produced in 1951.
- these lugs are almost unique, very nice.
- the piece is very rare. Vacheron has made many of these simple 3-hand- pieces like this at the time, yet your watch is one of the rarest references they made at the time.
- Your watch has a predecessor from the 40s, that actually was one of the first automatic watches from Vacheron, while your watch has the lovely handwind P454/5B movement.
- here you see the 40s automatic version with calibre v477 from 1943.
Thank you for your reply
By searching auction records and my own judgment, ref.4724 was produced in the early 1950s. You said it was produced in 1951, and i don't know if it was terminated in 1953. Can you find the historical production quantity of this ref.？
RE: Vacheron & Constantin ref 4724
This style is best known by the aficionados as the Chronomètre Royal (CR refs 4838, 4907),
it have been not much recognised yet that there have been also variants with 'standrad' V&C 453 & 454 manual movement.
Some of them outperform the CR samples in rarity easily - especially if you think about the Cloisonné Enamel dials variants.
Maybe you call the design of the case simply the 'Georges Croisier' or the 'GC'? It was from his workshop, probably the designer also:
Check the VC background info here and advertisment of his company here and a patent from Georges Croisier here
Georges
Croisier with his company Genevor SA located at Coulouvrenière 40, 1200
Genève, was one of the most respected case makers of the post-war era.
He was also working for other famous names like Omega, PP or IWC and others. The Poinçon de Maître (case makers mark) of Genevor SA is 'the key' with the number 5.
Omega did use exactly the same case design for their ultra famous 30 mm Omega wrist chronometres ref 14169 (Antiquorum sample link).
But I would like to add since I've seen not much dial variants of the 4724 yet they are probably there.
ref 4724 Cloisonné dial
ref 472x subsecond dial
Hand Guilloché silvered dial with 18K gold indexes and pearl minute track
The hand Guilloché pattern of the silvered dial with the applied 18K gold indexes is ultra fine and fully developed and points in a later period of those dials, in the early period of 1950's Guilloché dials the dial style was more simple. The pearl minute track is also original from V&C and not after marked made.
Thank you for sharing. I get a lot from every discussion.
I think the ref.4724 cloisonn é dial you described should be ref.4838, diam.35mm, caliber.454.
I didn't find the ref. of ref 472x subsecond dial. Can you share the specific ref.?
The Cloisonne variant.
In my opinion it was a ref 4724 not a ref 4838, no question.
What's your indication for 4838? All other 4838 are CR, with a different movement and case modification.
What's your indication for 4838? All other 4838 are CR, with a different movement and case modification.
But the better question for the aficionado would be: CR vs. Guilloché?
As I stated initially the aficionado would basically identify this ref as a CR.
That's no answer.
I'm actually able to read.
It's a statement by an Antiquorum expert of 1995, not based on an extract of archive or simmilar an in my opinion wrong.
But the better answer for the aficionado on the question CR vs. Guilloché is
(1) Cloisonné, because 'one off' or 'super rare' artistic enamel - a statement watch
(2) CR, because of the horoligical superiority of the Chronometre Royal - or even the 30 mm Chronometre as a principle
(3) Guilloché, because still more atractive than the usual standard
CR case with cloisonné dial is unique
Can you provide more information about this one? subsecond dial in CR case,i cannot find any information about it. whether picture or ref.
CR with cal 454 is also unique or lets better say not in existance
The CR always comes along with cal 1007/1008 BS.
This is a nice sample for the rare CR ref 4907 at www.phillips.com.
The ref mix-up base model and CR versions should be clarified.
Have a good weekend
I know that many Chinese VC enthusiasts focus more on Cr.Not enough attention on guilloch é dial large-size antique VC.
In my opinion, most of the antique VC with guilloch é dial are partially oxidized, and the perfect one are more difficult to find than the ordinary one.
In my opinion, most of the antique VC with guilloch é dial are partially oxidized, and the perfect one are more difficult to find than the ordinary one.
I try to get an objective look at them
What to say about the Guilloché.
The normal surface would be oxided because the dial surface is silverd and silver oxides after > 50 years in contact to oxygen that's the natural process.
If the watch was used there would have been also some intrusion of humidity and salt e.g. from the human skin, this could make the oxidation uneven or one-sided, but it would be still the 'natural wabi' - artifically not altered.
What you can find are dial surfaces oxided in different degrees and dials cleaned in different intensity - if they are cleaned well they may look even more pleasant than the oxided ones.
The normal surface would be oxided because the dial surface is silverd and silver oxides after > 50 years in contact to oxygen that's the natural process.
If the watch was used there would have been also some intrusion of humidity and salt e.g. from the human skin, this could make the oxidation uneven or one-sided, but it would be still the 'natural wabi' - artifically not altered.
What you can find are dial surfaces oxided in different degrees and dials cleaned in different intensity - if they are cleaned well they may look even more pleasant than the oxided ones.
Back to the ref discussion, what make you think that the watch with the Cloisonné dial is a diffent ref than your watch (except the written statements)?
Did you have a picture of yours watch case back?
As I look further I came accross the statement that the CR was initially (in 1953) marked as 4838 wrongly, and later marked correctly as 4907.My thoght was, what is the difference between those refs?
The difference for the CR is at least the CR inscribtion on the back, that's the explenation for 4838 -> 4907.
But did we actually understand the difference between 4724 -> 4838? I don't think so, it is not yet understood.
hi timeset
My judgment is based on the following information:
1、what is the difference between those ref.4838&ref.4907? ref.4838 ,sub seconds,with Cal. 1007/BS .ref.4907 ,center seconds,with Cal. 1008/BS. the case diam of two ref. are all 35mm.
2、the ref.4724, with Cal. 454(CR with cal.1007/BS&cal.1008/BS),37mm(CR should be 35mm).
3、the watch with the Cloisonné dial is 35mm,with cal.454,correctly should be ref. 4907.(maybe the caseback didnot carved chronometre royal?)
vintage VC with similar case,maybe different ref.
because of different diam. such as ref.6068 vs ref.6110
Alex, tick talk, I need your help here
hi student
Because of the CR it could be sayed probably both center second and sub-second have the same ref number and it should be the ref 4907.
You can read the explenation on the 4838 vs. 4907 topic at Antiquorum link
"...The present lot is an excellent Ref. 4907 comes with the Extract from
the Archive from Vacheron Constantin. What brings to our attention is
that, in this example, the model number engraved on caseback "4838"
doesn't match with its own model number, which should be "4907". And to
the best of our knowledge, only certain number of this reference, mostly
produced during its launch year 1953, were equipped with this "4838"
caseback by "error". And all examples produced after 1954 were equipped
with the right caseback..."
The ref number usually refer to changes of the case and for the CR we know it is the inscribtion CHRONOMETRE ROYAL on the back (at least).
Both ref 4838 and 4907 uses the 35 mm case and the size fits all of the movements (cal. 453, 454, 1007, 1008).
Therefore you would also know the the stadard ref 4838 equiped with 453 sub-second or 454 center second would probably existed as well.
The Cloisonne dial watch is a sample of it what you can conclude if you look for her movement.
The explenation that the difference between ref 4838 (35 mm) and 4724 (37 mm?) is the difference in diameter, would correctly discribe a case modification and therefore conclude a different ref number. But I've seen already Guilloché dials in 35 mm case called 4724. Did you measure yours watch diameter already?
Re: Pay attention to details...
It's indeed a good recomendation, cause the details could make up the difference.
The official VC discription of the Chronomètre Royal ref 4838 & ref 4907
the guilloché dials in 35 mm case called 4724
If you can provide pictures of this watch,e specially inside caseback and caseback,the discussion may come to a final conclusion.
Since I'm on a trip I won't further it
Still my answer for the aficionado on the question for those ref is:
(1) Cloisonné, because 'one off' or 'super rare' artistic enamel - a statement watch
(2) CR, because of the horological superiority of the Chronometre Royal - or even the 30 mm Chronometre as a principle
(3) Guilloché, because still more atractive than the usual standard
For the Guilloché it is therefore a competition betweenn the craftmanship wich made up the Guilloché dials and the style of the ref cases of those watches.
The Guilloché was quite popular in this time not compareable to the rarity of the Cloisonné.
have a good trip
From Sotheby's：
• Ref. 4830 MVT 495802 CASE 335589, Antiquorum Geneva, lot 724, Oct. 21, 1995,
Each of the dials in this series of watches appears to have been produced by Beyeler, a competitor of Stern Freres and Singer dial makers. Beyeler produced dials of all types including cloisonné dials on special order for major Swiss makers including Vacheron Constantin and Rolex. In 1997, Beyeler was purchased by Rolex.
The art of cloisonné is rarely seen on a Vacheron Constantin and surviving examples show the attention to detail offered to each of these timepieces. In order to produce one of these masterpieces, thin gold wire is first carefully placed on a primary layer of enamel. The enamellist then carefully mixes glass and oxides to create the perfect color and places the enamel on the dial. During this process, the enamel is fired up to 7 times to achieve the perfect balance of color and stability. The art of the enamellist is the ultimate expression of patience and discipline.
ref. of Antiquorum Geneva, lot 724, Oct. 21, 1995 ,that is the question.
In my opinion still a bunch of questions left
But actually only very few regarding your watch.
ok
Maybe it's a little unpleasant for others because i keep on asking questions like this.
No, I don't think so
Who is interested will follow the thread others would skip it.
The answers are not easy to give. Many information has to be checked, compared and so on, it's not only looking into records.
The answers are not easy to give. Many information has to be checked, compared and so on, it's not only looking into records.
Back to the discussion of Ref. 4724
I found 6 pieces of ref.4724 , all of them in yellow gold case, the design of the dial is exactly the same, using the same hands.
I prefer to think deeply in daily life. For example, before I visit ancient Chinese grottoes, I need to study more than 10 professional papers in advance and visit with questions. Some people around me don't like this life style and think it's very tired. There is an old Chinese saying, "难得糊涂"
And what's your conclusion about them?
They look similar but are full of differences.
Did you spot the differences already? Aply your knowledge as if the masters would do.
Did you spot the differences already? Aply your knowledge as if the masters would do.