Patek Philippe

They give some advices on cars, furnitures, wines and... watches.

Look at this one:

 

The two " stars " are the Volvo P 1800 and the Patek 175Th Anniversary, especially the Chronograph.

I have some doubts when I read that the P 1800 will soon reach 100 000 USD, even if the car is, of course, Worth getting even more consideration.

Funnily, they advice on the Platinum Chroongraph. For a good reason, as the author says he loves the Watch.

But is it enough to predict such a success?

Best,

Nicolas

But the price of pleasure wearing a patek & owning one

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What can make someone pick this one vs another ?

There are many references which would perfectly answer to the question of THE watch to buy.

I guess it was a fun exercize for his article and it was quite an easy choice to make a selection out of the 175th collection (for aesthetics but also for speculative reasons).

To me, this piece of advice only engages himself

Cheers, Mark



This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2015-04-20 06:45:15

Car so high! 

Best,

Nicolas

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As much as I like the P1800, especially in the 3 door wagon ES guise, they are sadly way too common and not nearly exotic enough to get close to the price envisaged. Even though they are amongst the most collectable Volvos, they have relatively humdrum underpinnings - I guess more like a vintage (non-exclusive) Omega than a bespoke Patek...

The Volvo is indeed a very nice collection car.

Cheers, Mark

Ten years ago, I was tempted to jum on one, when they were around 5 K Euros. I got one two years and a half ago, and paid it much more.

Nowadays, they go for an even higher price. But to say that they will soon reach 100 000 USD, well, there is still a world.

Best,

Nicolas

This message has been edited by amanico on 2015-04-20 07:44:54

I have to be more patient and stop drinking my 2005 Bordeaux! I don't know about the rest though

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lol kidding of course

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On the price of a P1800.  If he is talking about a fully restored car disassembled down to the frame and rebuilt ground up restoration I a sure 100k is reasonable as the restoration would most like cost 50k.

Great car.

Bill

For the moment, a very nice P 1800 is more circa 40 K Euros.Which is interestingly the double than the price, three years ago.

Best,

Nicolas

The money you would spend to restore the car to its original like new conditions would be much more than any buyer would pay.

But I know you are all about the pleasure and like watches these are not investments but objects to cherish and enjoy.

Bill

You paid... I mean: You pay 20 K Euros for a nice P 1800. So pay 20 K Euros to restore it, you will sell it around 30 K Euros.

BUT that is, from my point of view, not that important. The pleasure to drive it flawlessly is priceless. The pleasure the car will give you, too.

Not that important, because this one is a keeper, for the next generation, and my daughter already put an option on it. 

Best,

Nicolas

I think you described the situation very well - as long as there is little potential for the resale value of an oldtimer to more or less compensate for the investment lavished on it, the market will remain cautious. And the main elements that drive values up - exotic brand, fascinating powertrain, sporty (for the era) performance, rarity, and a large and wealthy enough client base that was hankering after these when they were new to be willing to pay large amounts for one - are largely missing. So apart from the Saint one, I see the values remaining well under $100k - unless we are in for a round of massive dollar devaluation or hyperinflation

None of this will take away the joy of owning one - unless you bought it as a purely financial investment, that is. And older Volvos do have a charm of their own - I did around 400k km in an 850T-5R, which even now (largely garaged and only used for the odd fun road trip) never fails to bring a smile to my face. It is worth next to nothing in spite of its pristine condition but I know where you are coming from with the P1800.

That almost each week someone comes to me to ask me if it is for sale. And the funnier thing is that my perpetual answer is... No, thanks. 

Pleasure is the best of investments. 

850 T5 R, the " brick "? That is a really cool car!

Best,

Nicolas

Yes, the brick. In a European context in the rarest combination, namely black, not yellow, and a sedan, not an estate - I suppose the US would possibly have other combinations. One of only 2500 in total - in this combo it was the only one in the country, I guess there might have been only a few hundred built like that overall.

And the pleasure is definitely in the use, not in the investment area

PuristSPro is not about money and we try to talk about price as little as possible as it detracts from the collector's experience.  On the other hand, FORBES is all about money money money.  So I approach this with a balance of collector mentality and yet advisory mentality. 

Please note, I'm not a Financial Planner.  So no liability here on what is stated. 

Wayne Carini is exactly right.  Buy vintage Volvos, especially the P1800.  Sell vintage Mercedes.  I would even say consider selling air-cooled Porsche 911s (they're close to the peak now).  Sell vintage Mercedes-Benz vehicles except 300 Gullwings, hold onto those.  These will increase in prevalence as MBZ, Tesla, BMW, and Lamborghini create more cars with doors that go up. 

I would add...  Buy vintage BMWs (values are skyrocketing).  And I think it's a good idea to even start buying vintage Audis (the original old QUATTRO cars are historically significant).  However, note there aren't many vintage Audis and they don't seem to last very long reliability-wise, also the Audi demographic is not into vintage cars the way BMW and Mercedes-Benz demographic so this is hard to say... 

Judith Miller is right, vintage Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and even vintage European porcelains as a whole are increasing in prevalence.  The European stuff (Meissen etc.) not so much as the Oriental stuff.  Modern European pieces are going down in value.  That mid-century modern furniture is at a high right now and prices will stop increasing or increase very slowly from here on out.  So it's a good idea to consider selling. 

I would add... silver teapots and other beautiful silver housewares stuff is going out of production.  Christofle is closing stores, Tiffany & Co. is going to cut production; this stuff is going to become extinct.  If you like silver candlesticks, tea services, etc. this will be the last chance to buy new.  They'll eventually hit auction where you can buy them very reasonably priced too.  That Tiffany & Co. dragon fly tea service is nice.  American interpretation of Chinese-Japanese tea pots in Western sizes.  A wonderfully odd clash of Westernized interpretation of Oriental stuff. 

Robert Parker is right on the money here with the wine.  The 2010 Southern Rhone wines, especially from Chateneauf du Pape tasted really young back when they were released, but they have aged OH SO NICELY and they're still reasonably priced.  So if you can get 2010 and 2007, get it.  Mine have been aging nicely.  In fact, I had a case of one of the Chateneauf du Papes and I've enjoyed seeing it age so nicely in just a 3-4 years that I'm down to my last bottle. 

I would add...  Go for more 2007s, especially Californian 2007s.  The 2007 Californian wines seem to be very good, perfect weather that produced great wine.  It will be a year long remembered in your cellar.  And they're still affordable and for sale at major retail outlets. 

John Reardon is more or less on the money here if you're talking about a very short-term outlook. 

I would add...  From a long-term financial perspective sell sell sell!  Vintage Rolexes are still going up but may start plateauing any month now.  The only thing I would buy is vintage Langes.  The Great Lange watches before Lange started making these crazy thick ostentatious pieces, such as the original Tourbillon Pour Le Merite, the original Lange 1 Tourbillon, Turbograph, the 1815 Moonphase, Langematik Anniversary with enamel dial and red XII, the Richard Lange PLM, up till the Richard Lange Tourbillon PLM.  Every super esoteric piece from the Lange 1 Tourbillon Perpetual Calendar and after has been very pretentious, too thick, rushed execution, etc.  The Lange with the star chart on the back screams neavou riche, superficial tastes, and isn't half as nice as the Patek Philippe Celestial.  Lange is expanding its factory too, so don't be surprised if it becomes more mainstream. 

Reaching the 100, 000 USD soon is not very realistic. Now, if we are speaking about quite long term, maybe 10 years, then... The car is quite rare. I see much more vintage Porsches than P 1800s on the road and in the Streets, and most of them are not in good condition. So...

About watches, there is a lot to say. I totally agree on early Lange... Especially the Anniversary, once people will get that a " humble size " is not a problem. After all, a vintage Dayto is not bigger!

Thanks for your very interesting feedback, my Wizard Friend!



Best,

Nicolas This message has been edited by amanico on 2015-04-24 23:22:02

Of course I default to your expertise with the P1800.  But don't be surprised if it goes up in value greater and sooner than you thought.  Look at vintage air cooled Porsches, many 993s doubled in the past 3 years in the United States and have become very valuable cars. 

Look at old Mercedes C36, C43, CLK55, and E55 AMGs.  They may eventually start to appreciate, as these were cars that were partially assembled at AMG's factory.  Today, the AMG cars are generally built in a non-AMG factory, but the engine is shipped over from the AMG factory. 

Count around 30 / 40 K Euros for a very nice one.

But 100 000? That's another story.

Best my friend.

Nicolas

I actually owned a P1800 station wagon. Very cool looking car but it was a nightmare keeping it running. Finally sold it to a guy who loves tinkering with old Volvos. Sorry Forbes, think you got this one wrong. 

It is pretty reliable, though. Dépends on the condition. Mine didn't drive a lot, before I got it... The first 10 K Kilometers, I tested the different issues. Since then at the exception of the clutch which was not changed for 20 years ( ! ), no issues, just pleasure.

Best,

Nicolas