Comments:
My question to the Patek forum members?
My collection is split between mainly Rolex, JLC and Patek. Within Rolex, 90% of my watches are vintage. Within JLC, 90% are modern. Within Patek, its now about 40% modern and 60% vintage. Up until this year, it was 100% modern. This year, I have seen the beauty of vintage Patek and have purchased a number of Calatravas from the 1960s. I find them simply superb. Pure. From a golden era of Patek watch-making. Some astonishing movements. Yes, it has not been hard to fall into this particular plot!
My question for the members of the Patek forum is philosophical. Rolex and Patek both share a very rich historical background. I think it would be very wrong horologically to say that Rolex has a richer history. Some on the Rolex forum have suggested that....to be sure, I resisted that. I think both have incredible historical paths. However, my question is simple......
Why is the Rolex forum dominated by vintage collectors whereas the Patek forum is dominated by collectors of much more modern Pateks? I find the dynamic fascinating to explore.
Patek has a rich and long history, and maybe more interesting, horologically speaking than
Rolex...
There were so many complicated watches which Rolex didn't have!
Hence the interest of your question...Both Rolex and Patek should have a ot of fans of their vintage watches, and it seems that Rolex has more vintage aficionados than Patek.
It is certainly not because Rolex encourages or support their vintage watches. They don't.
Maybe because vintage Pateks are:
- Often perceived as too small: 31 to 35 mm, more often, sometimes 36, 37 mm.
- Much rarer than the rolex stars.
- Less evident to appreciate at first glance: Put a Sub and a 3417 side by side, the mere mortal will go on the Sub, while WIS would go for the 3417.
While modern Pateks are more complicated, more expensive, more sophisticated, still rarer than Rolex watches...
Best,
Nicolas.
Yes....
.....you hit on my central point. I think vintage Patek has an extremely interesting history, and in terms of horological interest, perhaps the richest of any manufacturer....yet, as you say, it is vintage Rolex collectors who seem more passionate. And again, Rolex do not really support their vintage watches much at all, whereas Patek will support ANY vintage watch. Last week I took a 1960s watch that had the wrong hands......the solution...no problem....we have the correct hands in stock.
The size of the watch may be an issue.....I am gravitating towards vintage Patek with a 35-36mm range, but because of the nature of the case, it wears much bigger.
I think there is more going on here.....if i wear a 6241 two-tone PN.....very few people on the street would either recognise it as something special or indeed even see it as a Rolex. Once upon a time, it used to be the case that those that loved Rolex loved the show and the fact that everyone recognised it as a Rolex. Today, a Rolex Sub is just seen as a very nice but by no means astronomically expensive watch. Put a 5070 on the wrist....that shows a lot more in my view.
Big difference.
Make no mistake, the appreciation for vintage Patek Philippes is there and abundant, even among users on our site. But it's a much more expensive piece and thus less people in the game.
Also, the people in that space are sometimes more quiet about their acquisitions. Sometimes they're not shy about it too.
However, there are fewer changing hands, and also fewer in existence. So you hear overall less buzz on our forums.
When it comes to our Patek Philippe forum, the audience is normal. But, our PuristSPro Rolex forum is truly unique! It is the only forum that is mostly concentrated on vintage pieces. Compared with other forums, our Rolex forum offers a wealth of expertise and a wealth of knowledge regarding vintage Rolexes.
Why? Our moderator team on Rolex, yourself included, and many of our long-term participants happen to be true Rolex collectors and several with real vintage Rolex ownership experience. And thus, the gravity has only attracted other vintage Rolex fans with knowledge and gravitas.
Our Patek Philippe forum is normal. In fact, it's very normal, it even has the "I want to own my first Patek Philippe watch, what should I buy?" crowd (personally I find the individuals who ask this to be very strange and I don't understand why a sane person who's perfectly capable of making his own decision would ask such a question from a group who hardly knows him, but that's a whole different issue, maybe my perception is incorrect, maybe Patek Philippe buyers aren't necessarily sane) who have just heard that Patek Philippe is the best watch money can buy just like they've heard that PuristSPro is one of the most knowledgeable forums to ask watch questions in.
But our Rolex forum is a unique animal. Other Rolex forums on other websites have much more traffic than we do regarding modern Rolexes and have much less traffic about vintage ones. PuristSPro has established itself as an especially competent source of information for vintage Rolexes. Partially thanks to you Baron. You've contributed a large amount of knowledge regarding vintage Rolexes and you do so with authority since you personally own these pieces giving you first-hand experience. I may know what many consider to be a large amount about Patek Philippe vintage timepieces from the 1940s-1970s. But I'm overall less qualified since I don't have all the very long-term ownership experiences (such as the pains of servicing, etc.) that makes me a true authority on the subject.
Hope that gives you some answer to the question.
Thats a very interesting and full answer....
......and i agree on many points. Yes, you are probably correct that the Rolex forum is somewhat the vintage outlier, though I would also say that Blancpain has become quite similar and one or two other forums seem to develop in a similar way.
However, I think i still have some trouble on one or two issues. You state that vintage Patek is much more expensive and thus there are less people in the game. I am not sure that is true. Take the 3417 that I just managed to buy. It is certainly seen as a very rare Patek to find and is widely viewed as a grail. Yet, is it really so expensive? In fact, it cost around the same price as the most recent Calatrava offering from Patek. Take the astonishing 3541 white gold Calatrava that I found in NOS a month or so ago.....it cost considerably less than the brand new Calatrava. These vintage pieces are rare finds, but actually I think that they are not so expensive relative to modern. Also consider that a mass-produced Explorer II 1655 with orange hands.... a watch that is readily found, is at the same price...... I am not sure that it is right to say that price is the reason that so few people are involved. Honestly, I look at the prices that vintage Rolex have been fetching at auction and then look at these wonderful treasures I have managed to find this year in the 1960s Patek era, and I can't quite believe my luck! I hear your point about pricing, and yes when it comes to some super-rare moon phase of chronograph, then yes it may be an issue. But the same is true for the super rare Daytonas.....they are out of the reach of most people on the forum, they rarely get discussed.....but the 1655 Orange Hand.....yes that gets discussed a lot.....I am just so perplexed that more Patek vintage collectors don't appear more regularly here.......
Interesting question ...
and the answer to it is with the people/PuristS we have here - members and moderators.
The biggest and very serious collectors I know/met (most of them PuristS) are kind of discreet when it comes to show what they really have - at least when we talk about the seriously HEAVY guns. They are frequent followers (for years!), but most of them only have a few posts - if at all.
Please allow me one more thought. Rolex needs some "odditiy or flaw" (mainly based on age) to get collectible, but isn´t a matter of outstanding quality shown - at least most of the time. The offer of collectible watches is much wider when it comes to Patek Philippe. Almost no flaws are accepted, rarity does help to make it even more interesting ... but especially if we talk about vintage it is outstanding all-over quality that matters at the end. Even when the watch is "tiny" or looks "simple", it still can be very interesting and highly collectible for the connoisseur. Good news, there are still some treasures to find if you are not looking for "mainstream collectibles" and based on your own criteria.
Both brands quite often atract the "wrong" people - no offense to anyone here, but I guess most of you will know what I have in mind. Also the audience of Rolex is much bigger, because it is much more affordable for Mr. & Mrs. Smith - good or bad.
That´s all for now, after a long and annoying day with daily business ...
Cheers,
Oliver
The biggest and very serious collectors I know/met (most of them PuristS) are kind of discreet when it comes to show what they really have - at least when we talk about the seriously HEAVY guns. They are frequent followers (for years!), but most of them only have a few posts - if at all.
Please allow me one more thought. Rolex needs some "odditiy or flaw" (mainly based on age) to get collectible, but isn´t a matter of outstanding quality shown - at least most of the time. The offer of collectible watches is much wider when it comes to Patek Philippe. Almost no flaws are accepted, rarity does help to make it even more interesting ... but especially if we talk about vintage it is outstanding all-over quality that matters at the end. Even when the watch is "tiny" or looks "simple", it still can be very interesting and highly collectible for the connoisseur. Good news, there are still some treasures to find if you are not looking for "mainstream collectibles" and based on your own criteria.
Both brands quite often atract the "wrong" people - no offense to anyone here, but I guess most of you will know what I have in mind. Also the audience of Rolex is much bigger, because it is much more affordable for Mr. & Mrs. Smith - good or bad.
That´s all for now, after a long and annoying day with daily business ...
Cheers,
Oliver
Supply and demand
... If you have to say you are the boss your not the boss.
How many red subs or DRSD? How many 1518 or 2499. Supply and demand.
This doesn't make much sense to me....
......this is a forum where people share their watches and discuss them. This is THE place to talk about our watches.
Sure, there are more DRSD....way more....but why does that mean that the rare treasures from Patek are not discussed more?
Agree on most...but not all....
The beauty of PuristS is that it is a place where we don't judge each other. If someone wants to share their joy in owning a watch, they are received with welcoming arms and interest from the fellow enthusiasts. The forum is here so people with wonderful watches can share them....that is what the owners of the modern watches do, so why not the owners of the vintage....unless you are saying that there is a difference between vintage and modern collectors? There should be no difference, and I feel very strongly that it would be wonderful to see more vintage Patek featuring here and also celebrating the past of this stunning manufacturer. Look at Maxbliss....a poster on vintage Rolex for years....and now he has posted his stunning collection of vintage Patek...Bravo Max.
On the issue of price...I don't agree. I do not agree that vintage Patek has priced itself out of the market. Rolex Daytona Paul Newman....yes, that I agree. For many Patek vintage.....no. And that is partly why I raise the issue in this way as I think it is an avenue of joy that so many could venture...
One cannot argue on the one hand that its fine for owners of modern Pateks to be free to share their watches yet for owners of vintage there is a tendency to be more discrete. It doesn't make sense to me.......
I think this question has been answered in parts
I am not going to debate which company PP or Rolex has the best history . Both are old established companies run as a private company for many year now with single families dominating ( or owning the company as in PP case)
As to which company tends to look after its past and cultivate a history PP wins hands down . They have a vintage restoration dept and you can get a certificate of origin for each pice no matter how old. Rolex could not care a rats about its history - even though as we all know the history is what keeps the brand alive and the vintage Rolex collectors are where records are set in the auction room and keep the Rolex brand in the news. All this with no true vintage dept, no ability to service pieces from before the 60;s and and abundance of fakes/ put together making the vintage Rolex safer than a Croation mine field.!
I think there are just as many vintage PP collectors as Rolex but they are more discrete and this keeps them hidden.
Every so often we see a magnificent vinatge piece or collection but this is a rare post - on all forms BTW incl TZ.
There is a dedicated vintage Rolex forum but nothing exists solely for vintage PP and we share our interests with modern collectors who tend to outnumber us in terms of posts
So Joe as you slowly join the vintage PP collectors , maybe you will be the spur to allow other vintage collectors to post their wares, anonymously or otherwise
12-600 movement
Now that's what I am talking about.....
.....beautiful watches.....absolutely classic and pure.
But again, I am picking up a similar theme.....collectors of modern Patek seem to post on the forum quite happily but the issue of discretion crops up when it comes to vintage Patek.....again raising the question of whether these two populations are different. Maybe they are.....
However, I really do think it is a shame that more vintage Patek collectors do not participate here. It is possibly the best forum in the world for collectors of vintage Patek to participate. It is a forum dominated by collectors and not dealers.....there is always a welcome appreciation of others and the watches they have...politeness and warmth.
I don't think it will be me who acts as a catalyst to more vintage discussion on Patek....genuinely...I think once collectors start seeing the range of wonderful vintage models around, interest will be self-generated.
Really appreciate your response and input.
Best
Joe
Very much not the case.....
......the forum is dominated by collectors, not dealers.
What makes you say that?
One other factor that stands out , is that the Rolex vintage is all OYSTER
very little other vintage Rolex is shown
Why is this ?
does it relate to size and wearability
Does it relate to functionality - ie water proof andd tough
Does it relate to value and the fact that the majority of vintage Rolex vintage that has appreacited is really the Oysters rather than bubble backs ,Princes and other non oyster pieces
To be fair bubble backs and Princes have already had their 15 min of fame in the 1980- 1990
Julian
Two major reasons from my perspective.
1. Quantity in existence. Many more vintage Rolex than Patek.
2. Wearability.
- Size. Most vintage Pateks are too small in today's taste thus less wearable for most modern collectors. Popular vintage Rolex are mostly sporties which are significant bigger in size.
- Water resistance. Most vintage dress Pateks don't really have (or no more have) a reasonable water resistance by today's standard thus not suitable for daily wear. Once again, vintage Rolex sporties don't have this issue.
- Style. Visually it's fine to have a vintage Rolex with scratches and color alteration on the dial, etc. and the watch still looks good or even better on the wrist. In contrast, I guess fewer will accept to wear a vintage Patek with similar case and dial conditions.
I so far still don't have a vintage Patek mainly because of the above reasons. I have been thinking about a 2526, 2552, 3445, 570, etc.
Maybe a 3700 from 70s is a good start for me 
Two good points....
......but my response would be.....
1) Quantity..... there are undoubtedly fewer vintage Patek, but there are a huge number of Patek collectors.....that suggests that the demand/supply issue should only intensify the focus. OK, I think for some Patek the rarity is so exclusive that it precludes that, but for many Patek that isn't the case.
2) Wearability .... yes, this makes more sense to me. However, the nature of the case on many of these Calatravas is such that it wears bigger than it is. When the case perimeter does not have an insert and the actual size of the dial fills the case, a 36mm watch wears like a 38mm watch. For sure a number of 35-36mm Pateks just feel and look bigger than that size suggests. I also think it matters how/when you wear it. The vintage Patek is not a sports watch, but it looks stunning in many situations. Certainly with a suit.....it kills. Also, casually it can work very well.
Waterproof for me is not an issue .... i have a lot of "waterproof" vintage Rolex, and i would never dare let any of them near water!!
Demographics
Pateks are not cheap. A modern Patek costs as much as a Vintage Rolex. Often much much more. I have several Patek's. All modern. Post 1990. I consider myself a "wearer" and not a collector. I own several modern Rolex watches. Again, I wear them. I don't consider them a collection. Neither my Rolex or Patek watches have been acquired with any theme or purpose, apart from me liking that particular piece. No curating. I'm a lowbrow blunt instrument.
From my personal experience and acquaintance, I have found that real collectors of Pateks are slightly older gentleman. At least slightly older than me. I don't spend a lot of time surfing the web (I'm not on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, match.com , ashleymadison, Tinder or Grindr), and these gents rarely spend a lot of time on social network sites or on internet forums. They are also very discrete as with Patek one generally knows the production numbers on certain watches and it is easy to figure out who is who.
So when a young gentleman can graduate from current production Rolex to Vintage Rolex and Modern Pateks, he is more likely to share his collection on various internet forums. More seasoned collectors may lurk to check out the eye-candy, but they will seldom post.
Thus we may see more Vintage Rolex watches and Modern Pateks until this internet generation matures a little and begins to snatch up vintage Pateks. Unless of course at a certain level of income or a certain level of responsibility some people just don't have the time and/or the need for discretion is greater than the pleasure gained from sharing.
Interesting....
......not sure where that places me?? I am young enough to run a mile in under 6 minutes but old enough to have a son at university....i collect watches but do so with a 100% correlation to wearing them. I never started with modern Rolex ....i started with vintage Rolex and then modern Patek..... but having enjoyed the beauty of vintage Rolex wondered what it would be like to try vintage Patek....and I tell you, I think it gives me more joy than modern Patek....or at least as much. Not sure where I fit on the demographic....if i had a business meeting, there is more chance I will put a modern Rolex Explorer 1 on my wrist than a modern Patek...in fact, I would quite deliberately not wear an overtly expensive watch...again, not sure where that places me on the spectrum of owners.
This message has been edited by Baron on 2014-05-28 10:22:49
To be honest, I am not sure i agree with the elderly gentleman analogy.
I think it's about context and price point
Patek's have become extremely expensive and thus access to,collecting is very limited where one can pick up,a great vintage a Rolex for a fraction of either a modern or vintage Patek. There is something else though that I think is even more important. Context. Collecting Patek's is about the art of the watch itself. The movements and manufacture are extraordinary. Even vintage PP's is about the mechanism itself. Vintage Rolexes is more about what the watch evokes. It's not about the movement per se but about the history attached to the watch. A mil sub is about the history of where that watch may have been. The same for COMEX and the history of their divers. PN's are about aesthetics but also evokes the dash of the 70's while a 2499 is about the sheer genius if the mechanism and design. Both are extremely appealing but appeal,to,different parts of the soul and I think that's the difference. I LOVE the design and genius of the 5970, I think it may be the ultimate watch. It's comfortable, legible, large but not garish, etc. I adore my COMEX. I find it inspiring. Those that it was made for showed perseverance and endurance with a sense of,élan that is rare to find. It also is stealth...NO ONE knows what it is. It can be worn anywhere and just flies under the radar. Thus I don't think one can stack it up to,demographics or,a type,of,personality. It's two,sides,of,a very similar coin.
Bingo my friend
Firstly, Joe you bring up, once again a very interesting topic. I think the many answers given on this Forum have mostly
answered your question or at least made some very valid points and given us food for thought.
However I think Daytonaman really hit the nail on the head. Rolex provides a better context for sharing among collectors as it evokes a certain emotion. And this
goes across the line of Rolex watches. From GMT master to Submariner to Daytona to Killy. I think Patek also offers several lines that evoke strong emotion. Nautillus for example. But the Nautillus is still a young timer and I am not sure it qualifies as a vintage category yet despite the jumbo. And that is exactly the point. The models that colllectors dream about like the 2499 or the 1518 or the 530 and 130 or 1463 are just at a different price point than Rolex. And price is related to age. I do think Patek
collectors are older and thus not involved as actively in social media as Rolex. Also the DNA of Patek is elegance, sophistication, understatement and I think Patek collectors are exactly attracted to this DNA. Thus they are more discreet than Rolex collectors. They are connaiseurs who want to remain under the radar screen.
One last point important point even if it has been mentioned. There is HUGE difference in rarity between both brands. Patek even today with 40-45'ooo produces 30x less than Rolex does. How many of the Iconic 2499 were made? Only 350. How many 4 digit Daytona models were made by Rolex? Surely over 100'ooo. That is the big difference. And as an economist you surely must appreciate the supply demand forces at work here. They also help explain the reason why Patek is not discussed and shared as heavily as Rolex.
Best Edmond