Comments:
240 is so far, based on my personal experience, the most reliable Patek's automatic movement (among 315, 330, 324, 240).
I usually enjoy debating with Nicolas...
... but on that specific point, i almost agree with him...!
About the celestial, its such a majestic and fantastic piece, so highly priced, AND with big case for a Patek... 43mm ( not 42mm as mentioned in the post ) that i really don't understand why patek didn't dedicated a caliber for that model. I think it has more to do with economics. If dedicating a caliber for it would have made it even more expensive, than, no, its ok, 240cal is just fine 
Reminds me of the 5950A, 400k for a double split chrono is just too much to swallow.
Reminds me of the 5950A, 400k for a double split chrono is just too much to swallow.Now where i disagree, its when Nicolas mentions that he wouldn't buy a perpetual calendar if it has a 240 cal base because a module of PC has been added to it.
The cal240 has been designed in the 1st place with some goals : Being Reliable, as thin and accurate as possible, and simple in such way that its ready to have modules added to him.
Not adding a module on it goes against the original concept of the design of that caliber. Especially that the perpetual calendar is so thin and has a small case (37mm)
To answer your question : Good, very good. But i think you need to innovate, always!... Or you will die, sooner or later
My 2 cents
Realism and Economics are the opposite words of Luxury and Excellence.
Am I romantic too much?
Thanks for the correction on the diameter of the Celestial ( 43 mm ) , you are absolutely right.
Best,
Nicolas.
Now all that being said... You've woke up my urge to get the celestial :)
The hell with the 200k euro, in the end, its just money...
Ain't i too Romantic as well?
cal 240
I like 240 for the following reasons:
Winding efficiency is very good. (even many claim that 240 is due to the size of rotor inefficient)
Elegant and beautiful layout.
Thin as a whole, very thin bridges. (This is a big challenge for surface decoration and general reliability of the movement.)
Simple construction. (I am convinced the simplest construction is the best construction for mechanical devices.)
I have no problem for Patek to continue to use this base movement for further complications. I agree, however, it would be more suitable for Patek to create more exclusive movements for very high-end complications such as 5102.
I think it's fine
That's not the only concern about Caliber 240.
There are even more widely used movements such as IWC Caliber 5000, or GO Cal.39, and etc. but they are all considered very fine movements.
Especially Zenith El Primero, which consists almost 70 percent of whole collection, is a living history of the brand (Even though I find it overused).
I consider it fine as long as it is keeping accurate time and aesthetically pleasing
Good.
It's my 1st Patek so sentimental value wise is already a winner.
Wasn't aware of the cal. 260. I would love to know more about it.
Regard
Tyler
Same here. This was my first Patek.
And it is quite logical, as the World Time was the watch from Patek I desired the most!
Best,
Nicolas
240 is a fine movement, but
it is rather disappointing to see it across the board in so many watches. While each watch with the 240 has its own merits, it becomes a bit boring.
New watch should equal new movement in an ideal world, though this is a more difficult economic reality. (Kudos to Lange for nearly hitting this mark.)
"disappointing" or just ...
traditional Swiss?
Mr. Stern (sen.) said in an interview some years ago: "The best proof of the excellent suitability of Caliber 240
is the fact that we haven’t needed to make any fundamental changes in it since its launch."
"New watch should equal new movement in an ideal world ..." Is there one company doing so, today?
For Lange it was a smart approach from Mr. Blümlein in the early days - only. Just perfect for marketing to get attention.
Like Biver/Blancpain with no quartz movements since 1735
Oliver
Mr. Stern (sen.) said in an interview some years ago: "The best proof of the excellent suitability of Caliber 240
is the fact that we haven’t needed to make any fundamental changes in it since its launch."
"New watch should equal new movement in an ideal world ..." Is there one company doing so, today?
For Lange it was a smart approach from Mr. Blümlein in the early days - only. Just perfect for marketing to get attention.
Like Biver/Blancpain with no quartz movements since 1735
Oliver
No problem with size, but with finishing and overuse ...
Hi Oliver,
As you know I've had my 5712 for nearly a year now.
I payed attention to this size issue when buying mine and I still do when I look at a watch in a store. Indeed it is something I regret when it is too small : the work concerning decoration is not as interesting as in bigger calibers (most of the time).
So I can say that, for me, the 240 is of a good size. No problem on that.
I don't know for bigger Patek complications (except QPs I could have a look to), but for smaller it's a very good sized caliber, better than the 324 as the bridges are bigger (no external rail to let the weight pass). I'm glad this caliber exists and it's a very interesting one among many brands.
However, there are 2 things I don't like:
- The first one I really don't like : the finishing quality of the bridges' polished angles. (cf. picture below)
I love my Nautilus as in shape and spirit it represents many things I love (70's, sport, elegance etc), BUT the finishing of bridges' angles shows vertical line across the angles and this is not, from what Patek says, the high level of craftmanship I'm waiting for. It looks like it has been done with a machine and I don't like that, at all.
At least, I've been looking too much to very well finished watches' caliber and this statement is troubling me when I look at this one.
But maybe I'm too severe because I'm expecting too much perfection from Patek as I know their strenghs and rich capabilities and background.
- The second thing I don't like that much is finding this 240 from a T€.15 to a T€.100+ watch. I find it a bit easy to have the same caliber from one side to the other. Lange, for instance (main competitor) has different and exclusive movements as the collection gets more complicated.
Because of these points Patek is certainly not, for me, the 1st luxury watch brand (and volumes are not an excuse from my point of view (even if it has to be taken into account), even if it's one of the greatest as through its history and evolution through decades and regarding its most complicated watches.
So, as a conclusion, a very good caliber, not to small, very well decorated, very nice looking, but that could have better finished angles to be perfect.
To finish on a happy note: not to small!
Thank you for your work on this 240 offer Oliver
Cheers,
Mark
Very nice and interesting picture Mark. There is a lot of.....
food for thought in this thread. I'll eat first to give energy to my thoughts.
Cheers. Francois
Mark, if i may, you are being too severe here...
... about the finishing of the bridges, and the vertical edges. The parts of the movement are laser cut, and man's hand intervene later to finish those parts. Now you will not find on your nautilus the level of finishing that you will on a 5950A let's say. Still, it's a very well finished movement.
On the other hand, a little on the side of the topics... The level of finishing of the bracelet, the case, and especially of the dial, which gives that magic color that plays with light like no other dial, it's what you will enjoy most of the time you are wearing your watch.
Talking about it, makes me miss mine a lot 
5950A let's say! Just like that Fricks, let's say??.....
A 5950A he says, just like that? .....are we becoming blase Fricks? If you are just let me know, I look after it very gooooood, with love and tender attention, I promise! :
:Cheers. Francois
I agree Fricks,
I love that watch too and as Oliver's post concerned the 240 caliber I was only focusing the movement.
But as you said, the bracelet, the case and, last but not least, the dial are absolutely great. That's why I bought this fantastic watch, and I love it, but I wanted to remain fair-minded and emphasized a point that could (should?) really be improved.
Hope I corrected my severity in a fair way Fricks.
Have a good day
Mark
"the level of finishing that you will on a 5950A"
If there would be any Nautilus with that kind of finishing and attention to the detail, the price would be ridiculous.
The movement inside the 5950 and lots of other details on that specific watch shown, are to die for and I could get
lost just looking at it (with or without loupe) for hours and hours. But even when all of us could afford one, it would
be very limited by production capacities. It is always good to have dreams, isn´t it?
Cheers,
Oliver
The movement inside the 5950 and lots of other details on that specific watch shown, are to die for and I could get
lost just looking at it (with or without loupe) for hours and hours. But even when all of us could afford one, it would
be very limited by production capacities. It is always good to have dreams, isn´t it?
Cheers,
Oliver
Unfortunately not ...
as I was not allowed to take pictures when I saw it the last time. But it still "burns" in my head and not only the movement ...
Have to work on that, at least on the pictures
Oliver
Have to work on that, at least on the pictures
Oliver
good to be precise...
... work on the pics
I will try to find someone who is around geneva, still the best place to have a chance to find such piece is in their salons there
"the finishing quality of the bridges' polished angles"
Mark I agree with you in general, even when it is still above industry standard. People like you and me expect 100% or even more ...
But if we would always get what we ask for we couldn´t afford them anymore - probably
Once I had the idea to go for a simple PP from current production and than to start a project regarding "ultimate" finishing
with one of the independents. No changes outside, just inside and just for my own pleasure. Crazy? Probably!
"the same caliber" Is it really the same or does it just share the same base caliber? In the automotive industry it is quite common
to share the engines and than to adapt it to what ever is needed. Even a highly sophisticated and pricey engine from AMG can be even more (much more!)
expensive when you order from Pagani. Is it still the same engine or just the base? I believe a lot of extra work is needed, isn´t it?
At the end each project (watches, cars ...) should be an economical success (more or less) - in the long run. More effort, lower production ... higher price tag.
"a very good caliber, not to small, very well decorated, very nice looking, but that could have better finished angles to be perfect"
A simple watch based on the caliber 260 comes to my mind, again. I guess such a project won´t be regular production and therefore we have another problem - availabily.
Cheers,
Oliver
But if we would always get what we ask for we couldn´t afford them anymore - probably
Once I had the idea to go for a simple PP from current production and than to start a project regarding "ultimate" finishing
with one of the independents. No changes outside, just inside and just for my own pleasure. Crazy? Probably!
"the same caliber" Is it really the same or does it just share the same base caliber? In the automotive industry it is quite common
to share the engines and than to adapt it to what ever is needed. Even a highly sophisticated and pricey engine from AMG can be even more (much more!)
expensive when you order from Pagani. Is it still the same engine or just the base? I believe a lot of extra work is needed, isn´t it?
At the end each project (watches, cars ...) should be an economical success (more or less) - in the long run. More effort, lower production ... higher price tag.
"a very good caliber, not to small, very well decorated, very nice looking, but that could have better finished angles to be perfect"
A simple watch based on the caliber 260 comes to my mind, again. I guess such a project won´t be regular production and therefore we have another problem - availabily.
Cheers,
Oliver
You spot it right
As you said Oliver maybe I forget what I'm waiting for compared to the production capacity and the overall demand of these watches.
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2013-03-02 10:28:42
I was a bit unfair there.
I took back the 5712 from the safe since friday and I must say this is way above the average finishing in the high-end offer. As I said it is not perfect, but I was to severe for the 2% missing.
However as I mentionned, I bought it, which means of course it wasn't unacceptable so ...
Concerning the 240 "as a base", I quite disagreee as we can't compare automotive industry with what is watchmaking (hopefully). I certainly won't accept such transfers between watches or the same kind of industrial rationalization.
Especially as the 240 base remains nearly unchanged from a 5711 to a QP. In your car industry the base is deeply modified (Lotus and Rover/Toyota engines for instance). I would rather compare the car industry to the Lemania base transfer: a same base in different brands but highly modified.
I find it too easy to modifiy the case and the aesthetics while keeping what is hidden unchanged. +T€.60 for the PC module? hmmm hmmm.
Thanks for you reply Oliver, it was an interesting point of view to concider.
Cheers,
Mark
This message has been edited by Mark in Paris on 2013-03-02 10:28:42
angle finish
Dear Mark,
I am fully with you on the fact that most Patek movements can be improved in terms of angle finish. I compared 240, 315, 324, 28-20 (5100 mvmt), 27-70 (Lemania based chrono), CH 29-535 (5170), R TO 27 (3939) and R 27 (5078).
In general, my findings: (finishing mainly refer to the angle finish which requires a lot of hand craftsmanship)
- All base movement are finished at the same or very similar level. No big difference between 240 and 324.
- All manual winding chronograph, tourbillon, repeater movements have excellent finish level
- Latest 324 and 240 movements are (slightly) better finished than those from 90s and early 2000 (2000-2006)
Angle finishing
Some more to share.
In addition:
- It's much more difficult to finish (angle part) the bridges on 240 because they are very thin and (relatively) big. The improper (or say over) angling could cause shape change of the bridges.
- Lange's German silver based movements are easier to finish to a higher level. For two reasons: bridges much thicker, the nature of German silver.
- I respect the earlier Lange "one movement one watch" way, but it could only be possible in the past. Lange didn't have a big collection. Lange didn't produce many watches. Lange didn't have (or didn't expect) an increasing large amount of service watches that will come in the years to go. The current Lange practice, change the bridge size to enlarge the existing movement, causes the disproportion of bridges layout. For these movements (e.g. the one for enlarged 1815, new Saxonia, Lange 1, etc.), I'd better have the original smaller ones.
Very interesting input
Hi Grisar,
Thank you very much for your 2 replies, it's the kind of tangible elements I like as we need to remain objective and fair.
Dje also mentioned those 3 levels of finishing and I'm glad to see that you confirm this observation.
I found very interesting your overall finishings comparision and the technical reasons why it seems to be much more difficult to do the same job on a smaller and thin bridge (and different materials). I didn't think of that.
I'm happy we've discussed this point as it explains, for a part, the finishing level differences I noticed on my 240.
Have a good day Grisar
Cheers,
Mark
I'm of two minds
I do agree that it would be preferable to have a movement purpose-built for each reference, no modules, etc.
But then you have the 5970 and its kin having the same movement as a cheap Omega... Doesn't make them less desirable in my view.
I confess I am increasingly drawn to Lange.