Patek Philippe

Owning a Patek has been at best a pipe dream for much of my adult life. Every so often I would peer at a window display, pick up a catalogue or visit this fine forum to learn what I could about the designs or calibers. The complicated timepieces are a marvel, but I have always known that a classic piece with a basic movement is more my style. This much I realized 12 years ago when I came across a vintage Patek for sale in a New Orleans antique store (forgive me, I did not have the vocabulary then nor the recall now to describe it appropriately).

This week I decided the time was ripe to get a decent dress watch to complement my IWC Spitfire Fliegerchronograph. That watch has served me well as an all purpose wearer, and was the first decent watch I could afford. I spoke to a few vendors about Franck Muller, Vacheron Constantin, Breguet and, of course, Patek; with the notion of finding a moderately sized tonneau, tortue or tank design. The modern designs are either too big for me or beyond my budget. Therefore, I began looking at pre-owned offerings which suited my preference anyway. I tried on a few classics in the various brands and found myself drawn to the Patek Philippe rectangular wristwatches of the 1930s through 1950s. Then I read some of the posts in this forum by watch-guy.com and ThomasM on the calibre 9-90 movement and the cases they complemented. My mission thus became to find such a watch in good condition.

So, today. I found a local vendor who listed a Ref. 425 in rose gold, apparently in exceptional original form. The pictures on the Internet looked promising but I had to see it myself; not to buy right away but to give me some perspective. Well, upon seeing it I knew I had to own it. The face looked really clean with applied Roman numerals at 12, 2, 4, 8 & 10; the crown had the Calatrava Cross (which did not seem to fit the period, but fit the watch nicely -- the vendor insisted it was original to the piece though I was not convinced); the case was in great shape and had no names or monograms on the back; and the brown leather strap and buckle seemed authentic.

I asked the proprietor to open the case so I could inspect the movement. Everything looked right by my amateur eyes and I wrote down the serial numbers. A quick glance at my smartphone to view ThomasM's survey confirmed it was produced in the 1934-1950 period. I then looked for the Geneva seal and assumed that I found one. Next, I studied the inside of the casing to confirm official Patek Phillipe stamping. I was convinced, so negotiated a price for more than I wanted to spend but fair if I had the genuine article. The vendor advertised he had the original box, but said he'd have to look for it; no promises. Of course, no original paperwork.

After leaving the store I felt uneasy, so went to another vendor who I knew would do a proper appraisal and seek authentication from Patek. I asked him to be brutally honest with me. (1) He confirmed my suspicion that the crown was a replacement; (2) he felt the face was too neat, perhaps cleaned or redone, and the "Patek Phillipe & Co." lettering was flat compared to the raised embossing typical of the period; (3) he identified a stamp on the outside of the case next to the crown, which he said is a good sign; (4) next he opened the case to inspect the movement and confirmed it as a genuine 9-90, furthermore identifying a double stamp of the Geneva seal (explaining this is good as it indicates chronometer precision); (5) he surmised that the movement's serial number places its production in the early- to mid-40s; (6) finally, he reviewed the inside of the front and back covers and said the numbers matched. On balance he said it is a fine watch, though warned of the possibility Patek would demure authenticating it if it is a stolen or missing watch.

I have two weeks to await their response.

In the interim, I ask for your general thoughts and unvarnished analysis of my new timepiece. (I will add pictures later as soon as I can figure out how to attach them.)

and my guess would be Ref. 1560 (cal. 9-90; size: 23mm x 32; 1940s).

Picture can be found in: Patek Philippe in America Reference Guide, page 56

Looking forward to get more details

Oliver

Interesting observation on the reference.  I was going by the vendor's advert and pictures of Ref. 425, which closely approximate my watch.  Will definitely hunt down a copy of the Reference Guide for details on Ref. 1560.  The archive extract will tell all.  So much to learn, but this is the fun part!

...


What do you think?



Oliver

Thanks Oliver for the scan!  It certainly looks like my watch, particularly considering the frame and angle of the lugs, though I notice a few differences.  The pictured watch seems more square than rectangular, both on initial impression and by reference to the layout.  The minute hand appears like it would sweep over the bottom part of the XII.  Furthermore, the seconds dial is flush with the minutes register at the 6 position.  My watch shows definite clearance on either end.

I also observe that the position of the batons at the 5, 25, 35 & 55 minute markers are one minute inside the frame, whereas mine are at the corners and extend longer.  The baton positioning of the pictured Ref. 1560 suggests an accommodation for a more stout encasement.  Another difference is that the four position is indicated as IIII versus IV.  However, I think that is more a matter of style than an indication of the appropriate reference.

Those are my thoughts anyway.  I anxiously await the archive extract.

As you say it is very difficult to comment on pics only.

A few thought.
1. Dial looks original -possibly cleaned but should have enamelled letter. Sub seconds looks like original enamelling though
2. Crystal is replaced. Should be facetted.
3. Get an extract from PP archives to make sure case and movement are both original to each other fromPP
4.The final decision to buy will depend on price.

Here is a pic of my ref 425 ( also known as the tegolino or little tile)


The case needs a bit of a clean

Good luck

Julian

Your contributions definitely have helped me in my search and I appreciate the feedback.  I see what you are saying about the faceted crystal as I look at your lovely piece.  I also prefer how your crown is more subtle than mine.  Fact is that I have purchased the watch and will have to deal with the consequences upon appraisal.  I will let you know how that turns out.  So, is the extract from the PP archives different than the authentication I ordered?  If so, am I able to request that from the archives directly or would I need to use the vendor I'm trusting now with the appraisal and PP authentication? 

Contact pp via website or mail with details of case no. And movement no . Cost approx 200 chf. You don't need Amy details from seller

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As advised, I am doing all I can to determine the provenance of the piece.

Enjoy!

--

Richard.

Since you've been wearing the spitfire for some time, I'm sure you've been spoiled by its robustness and water resistency. This watch will not be able to withstand many of the things your spitfire has, specifically the water resistency issue. Other than that, a great watch which I'm sure you will enjoy for many years.

It is like alternating between a rock and an eggshell.  My IWC is stainless steel, water resistant to depths of 180 feet, covered by a grade 9 hardness sapphire glass and double cased (with the inner one made of soft iron to protect against magnetic fields).  I wear it indiscriminately.  My Patek is gold cased, not sealed, and has elements highly susceptible to moisture.  It requires a more delicate touch.

Just received the appraisal from the vendor who had also submitted the request to PP for an archive extract.  Good news.  He has appraised my watch at precisely the value that I negotiated, which is 32% below the selling vendor's listed internet price and 10% below that vendor's initial in-store negotiating position.  I never told the appraising vendor what I paid for my watch.

N.B. : the selling vendor issued a "certified insurance appraisal" at the time of sale that was a laughable 3x the price I paid.

Received PP's Extract from the Archives today, so mystery solved.  My Patek is neither a Ref. 425 as marketed nor a Ref. 1560 as surmised by Oliver.  It is a Ref. 1468.  I have attached a copy of the extract with the last four digits for each of the movement and case numbers redacted. 

I am very pleased with this watch and remain in awe that it keeps such excellent time after 70 years.  For the Patek historians on the board, what is your perspective on the Ref. 1468?

the additional info.

1468 - the dial is still beautiful ... and cal. 9-90 is always nice ...

Oliver

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I hadn't seen this posted and also recall forum rules are strict on links to other sites, however this is a story that ought to be shared. I had been considering the history of my own Patek and the world as it was in 1941, when I came across this New York Times article:

www.nytimes.com