Patek Philippe

I had a Patek 3940 perpetual stolen in 1996 from my home. I know who took the watch as there was a repair person in the house that day and he had access to the place where my beloved watch was resting. It actually was hidden, but you had to pass through my home office to get to where he needed to work and with all the books, magazines, price guides and so forth, I guess it wasn't difficult to figure out it was worth snooping around a bit.

Long story short, the police also agreed this person took the watch, but there was simply nothing that could be done. They searched his home with a warrant, but no watch. For those who understand a bit of law, no watch, no arrest period.

I reported the watch stolen to Henri Stern watch agency in New York and was under the impression this information would be entered into a database, at least together with the factory in Geneva. I happened to call the other day, just to update my phone number and was very upset with what I learned. Stern had it listed in their database, but this information was not shared with Geneva. I contacted Geneva today to ad my watch to their list as well, but I'm shocked this was never done before.

I'm sure this watch has traveled the world and who knows where it is living now. If Patek had a world-wide database, I would have had a good chance to see my watch again. I'm sure over the past 13 years, the watch has been repaired, serviced, or brought to an AD somewhere. With modern computers, all Patek or any other watch company would need to do is have a computer database at all their AD's world-wide, so when a watch came in for service the repair department could just enter the movement number to make sure the watch was not stolen.

Why they don't do this I simply don't understand! Not only would it help to return watches to their rightful owners, but it would also help put a scare into the grey market they are so worried about. Sure the watch is new with box and papers, but how do you know it wasn't stolen? This way, if someone purchased from a grey market dealer and did in fact get a stolen watch, they would be out of luck when it needed some type of service in the future.

My watch may have been serviced many times, who knows, the only thing I know is it wasn't sent to Heri Stern in New York. It could be in Hong Kong, Europe, or anywhere for that matter. Again, if there was a world wide database, I would probably see my watch again.

Without one, I have little chance.

Fallanden.ch

No message body

How does Stern know that your watch was stolen?  How do they separate a valid claim from a false claim?

I suspect they don't want to be in the business of policing and/or arbitrating whether or not a watch submitted by a customer truly belongs to that customer.  What if they confiscated a watch that wasn't actually stolen but in fact had been lost or actually sold?

Theoretically a good idea but practically unlikely to work.

First, Patek does maintain a list of stolen watches, they just don't share the list with all their Ad's. So are they saying it's OK to bring your stolen watch to one of our Ad's but you had better not send it to HQ?

If you had actually sold the watch, then there would be a paper trail showing some form of sale and the rightful owner would have grounds to have you arrested. You probably also turned this in under a home-owners policy if nothing else, so you have insurance fraud as well. This wouldn't be Patek's probelm, but rather the authorities in that jurisdiction.

When you report such an item as being stolen, quite a bit of information goes into the police report. There are not so many stolen watches of that value floating around, so when the owner brings the watch in for service, he or she would probably have some proof as to how they got the watch if questioned.

If it was simply lost, and reported as stolen, I agree this is more difficult to handle, but watches of this value always have a paper trail. If the new owner states "I found it on the beach." then they would have to show under the jurisdiction they live in, that the watch is now legally belongs to them. Many jurisdictions require a person to make an effort to find the rightful owner, if they followed whatever the local rules were, then they have nothing to worry about.

The reality is that there are two types of owners, those that actually have clear title and those who do not. With a little investigation, I don't think it would be that difficult to discover who really owns the watch.

Take mine for example, I have all the paper work, the reciept, box and so on. Someone else just has a 3940 with no proof to show they obtained it legally.

As I said earlier, it also would sting the grey market a bit.

 

that's not true.   I've purchased watches from ADs, gray market dealers, and individuals from around the world.  With the exception of those purchased from ADs, i've almost never known the original owner and often don't have any paperwork.  This is particularly true with vintage watches which were owned and worn by people who didn't care about keeping boxes or papers.

As far as I know, every single one of these was a legitimate purchase.  Nevertheless, if someone told me that 40 years ago my watch was reported stolen, i'd be pretty upset and want to see some serious proof especially after having spent tens of thousands of dollars on my purchase.  Do you really think Patek wants to get involved in a mess like this by accusing a loyal owner of buying a watch that might have been stolen but there is no absolute proof?  I just don't think they would want to get in the middle of this type of controversy.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong.  I'm just suggesting that Patek would have a lot to risk if they tried to police this type of accusation.

 

The current policy is that Patek maintains a database of stolen watches at Henri Stern and in Geneva. As long as you contact both yourself, they don't exchange information.

I was told today that if my watch ever were to show up at Stern, it would be frozen ASAP and I would receive a phone call. In fact, the person told me this happens multiple times per month. So, if they didn't want to get involved, why keep such a database at all? They have every right to just stay out of such affairs and leave these matters to the public. If you bought you watch legit, then your right, you would be in the clear. It would be up to the police, if they cared, to go through the paper trail and find out where the missing link is. I think it would be reasonable if there were a period of time under which they would either have to track down the proper owner and theif, or close the case and return the watch to the current owner.

There should be closer cooperation with maintaining a central database.Also , with respect to those who argues that if you bought a watch in good faith and subsequently the watch was found/proven to have been stolen, it rightly belongs to that person.The title of the watch never passes on to you even if you paid good mpney . in good faith and not aware of it being stolen.If you are aware that it is stolen and atill bought it, you have broken the law on receiving stolen goods.This is the law In UK,Australia , USA and I would suggest many other countries.

Simply filing the police report is not sufficient, you need to send a copy of the report to Stern or to Geneva. My understanding is that nothing can be done without it.  To be on the safe side, contact Patek and ask what they require.

that some middle ground should be found
You have my complete understanding and sympathies- I would be equally frustrated if one of my watches was stolen.
The AD should participate more- they should have an updated list of (proven) stolen watches. but also maybe we could also help- for eg on this site we could have a posting of stolen watches with case numbers for obvious reasons
I sincerely hope that you find your watch and the thief is caught
Cheers

I am somewhat familiar with your situation.  A client of mine had his watch stolen from his hotel room in SC while on vacation, he called me to let me know and I informed H. Stern.  Ten or twelve years later, I get a call from Stern, the watch had come in for service.  I thought that the watch would be returned to my client since it had been reported stolened as we had been instructed to do....but that was not the case.  We would have needed to send a copy of the police report to Stern to show that the watch actually belonged to my client at that time.  Of course, no one told us that was necessary and it was not a pleasant conversation with my client letting him know that he would not be getting his watch back, even though we had a copy of his sales receipt and the original certificate of origin filled out correctly which corresponded to the receipt.  That was not enough.....you have to file the police report and send a copy to Stern and now maybe Geneva.

I am confident if you provide H.Stern with that paperwork, you are likely to get it back.  I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Make a police report within a short reasonable period after it has been stolen.Police will ask many questions and verify you docs.etc, where you originally bought it from etc.This is fairly standard practice for insurance claims as well, with insurance companies requesting you make a police report.

Singapore a few months ago when a big AD salesman stole watches worth millions? He ran to Thailand and surrender himself later in the Singapore Embassy. I was wondering why he surrender? The chance of the interpol to find him in Thailand and many developing Asian country is very small especially if he move around between countries with fake passport than can be obtained easily in Thailand and many other developing countries as long you have the money.

It came to my mind that it could be that the watches serial numbers are tracked by a computerise database worldwide and that he can't sell it easily to the black market because of this reason (the after sales service will be impossible). This reason has made him surrender and give up the idea totally.

Your finding is very suprising and at the same time upsetting to me. I love watches and have many of them, this information has made me very insecure. I could end up collecting other things. I think serial numbers and certificates should be used fully and not just to increase the watch market value. 

Now, I must think where to store my watch at home, since have have maids, babysitter and driven wondering around the house. 

They should add it here in beta as a tab, like with the collector market.

Thank those of you who properly understand what it must feel like to have a 3940 stolen from your home, only to find out that Patek really does nothing to help return the watch to you. Again, any complicated Patek at some point in it's life wil need the services of an authorized dealer and if they had a database, you would eventually see your watch again.

In my case, I do have a police report, but it will only help me if the watch shows up at Stern in N.Y or now in Geveva, as I just recently gave them the information. However, if it is serviced anywhere else in the world, I'm just out of luck.

And I'm glad to see a few lawyers in the group, yes, good title never passed to anyone on my watch. If you purchase stolen goods without knowledge, your in the clear, but you lose the watch, if you knew about it, your in violation of the law.

And yes, what good are all those numbers everywhere on our expensive watches, if they don't help you to find it if stolen? Watches have more numbers than any other product I can think of and yet, they are of little use, they just look fancy.