Just arrived!

Sep 02, 2021,07:13 AM
 

Slightly more than four months ago, Torsti Laine introduced the V38 in a 38mm case with a Vaucher VMF5401 automatic movement and a 48 hour power reserve.  His previous offerings were in 40.5mm which I had tried on and found them too large for my small wrist.  When I read about the V38, I decided to place an order, the only dilemma being what dial to choose. Laine offers a wide variety of dials from a combination of hammered and guilloche and I opted for the triple guilloche.  One could easily be swayed by at least three of four different dials so really, there is no such thing as an ugly dial - they were all gorgeous and it was a case of beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


The watch finally arrived an hour ago and I was quite concerned how the dial would look. This is the problem with ordering a coloured dial without having set eyes on the actual watch.  To my amazement and ultimate relief when I opened the box, I set eyes on one of the most beautiful dials I have ever seen.  To think this watch is mine and I bought it based on photos on the internet is something I felt like taking my left hand to shake my right hand in a self congratulatory gesture! smile  (ok,ok, I actually did it  smile)

This watch is very wearable and light. It is 9mm thick and I would recommend anyone wanting something a bit special but who cannot stretch to a Voutilainen to seriously consider a Laine. The raised Breguet numerals and the exquisite hands add to the beauty of the watch.

Please excuse my poor photography which really does not do this dial the justice it deserves. Also I have no idea why my photos are sideways as they appeared straight before attaching them!  smile






A nice wooden box that is not too large












A nice personalised touch




The engraved rotor on the Vaucher movement


This message has been edited by mahesh on 2021-09-05 07:38:12


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A better photo of the watch!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:16
...  

(Thats not the watch)

 
 By: chap : September 4th, 2021-19:19
Thats the manual 41mm version, different hands as well Still a beauty. And big congrats. I too am an appreciator and patron of his work...

You are correct!

 
 By: sham1 : September 5th, 2021-01:30
This photo was from the Laine website. As I do not take decent photos, I wanted a good photo of the dial. In addition, my watch has Breguet hands which I specifically ordered.

Thank you very much Mahesh!

 
 By: sham1 : September 5th, 2021-07:44
You really need to see this dial in person as the photos don't really show the true beauty of the dial. I have never seen a more beautiful dial to the extent where I am planning my next order with Laine.

Great dial combination! I've been considering the V38 for a while now..

 
 By: tal.edvabsky : September 16th, 2021-07:06
Thanks for sharing your experience and photos of your recent purchase!, I've been wondering if in the process of deciding the dial color and guilloche patterns and all, did Laine give you some mock-up photos? some actual dial photos? because I'm not good ... 

Choosing the 'right' dial will always be tough

 
 By: sham1 : September 16th, 2021-07:21
when there are so many different variations to choose from which is why I am likely to order another one soon! Torsti Laine did advise me to look at all the dials shown on his website on all the models because he can basically do any dial combination. For... 

Thanks for the quick reply!

 
 By: tal.edvabsky : September 16th, 2021-07:44
Wow, seems quite scary to order withiut seeing it even in pictures first, I love one of their last combinations with salmon outer ring and laine (quite white) guilloche inner dial (the wave pattern). Congrats again!

You are most welcome and thank you!

 
 By: sham1 : September 16th, 2021-08:07
I know the one you like - hammered salmon outer dial and guilloche white inner dial right? May I politely say that you cannot go wrong with that combination so you will be fine placing an order for such a gorgeous piece., I doubt if this watch will look t... 

Yeah this is the only reason im conisdering it

 
 By: tal.edvabsky : September 16th, 2021-08:23
I have an Aqua terra 41.5mm I bought a few years back when I wanted a kindda not too small watch, but I have tiny wrists and in the last year or so its thickness (around 13.5mm) and diameter started to look very funny on my wrists (well my taste changed o... 

The saxonia thin is a great watch

 
 By: sham1 : September 16th, 2021-08:35
and probably one of the best value watches out there looking at value versus quality. What many fail to notice about the Saxonia thin is that the patina off the dial is darker and therefore richer in colour than say the Saxonia 35mm. Apart from being thin... 

Oh, I didn't know

 
 By: tal.edvabsky : September 16th, 2021-09:22
That he outsources everything neither did I know that they sell only ~60 watches, wow. Well lets see what the future will hold. Thanks!

I think it is important to appreciate

 
 By: sham1 : September 16th, 2021-10:10
that it does not really matter if a brand outsources or produces everything in house. Most important is that everything is disclosed and the quality if the end product is beyond reproach. Companies like to produce everything in house as this improves thei... 

Thanks man!

 
 By: tal.edvabsky : September 16th, 2021-12:39
Keep us posted if you get another one on your desk soon

I certainly will! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 16th, 2021-15:18
Happy watch collecting to you!

Here you go!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:32
Also notice the L on the crown. A nice touch. ...  

It is not your poor eyesight

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:53
but my poor photography that deserves all the credit!

Congratulations!

 
 By: RahulR : September 2nd, 2021-07:30
Congratulations Sham! That looks fantastic and I think the 38mm is a fantastic size. The guilloche is lovely.

Thank you Rahul!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:33
It just shows that one can buy a really nice watch at the lower end of the price spectrum Hope you have been keeping well my friend.

The watch is very light dependent

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:37
This photo was taken by Torsti Laine himself on completion of this watch last week. ...  

Agreed 100%

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:52
I am a great fan of Voutilainen but as I wear the watch and ogle at it, I ask myself do I really need a Voutilainen?! Yes the Kari will have a beautiful manual winding movement with a huge balance wheel but the Laine is one of my better purchases lately a...  

A superb hammered dial

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-10:19
but the Laine for me is something quite special. Thank you for your kind comments.

Congratulations Sham !!!

 
 By: Lankysudanese : September 2nd, 2021-07:47
That’s quite the timepiece, and your post is on a #Thorsti_Thursday 😁😁😁 I haven’t seen too many automatic Laine’s around; most of the focus is on the manual calibers This one is both gorgeous and unique Wear it in good health.

Thank you my friend!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-07:55
Laine had been making his 40.5mm watches with a manual movement so this V38 was quite a departure from his usual range. And I am glad he decided to cater for the smaller wristed folk - yes a manual movement would have been even better but I am not complai... 

Perfect.

 
 By: Lankysudanese : September 2nd, 2021-08:21
I’m a novice to these guilloche dials. What’s the certificate that you attached a photo of? Does Thorsti contract the dials out? Either way, that triple guilloche will hold its own against any offering from another guillocher.

The certificate is

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-08:29
one that authenticates the dial. it actually gives the dial number. Torsti Laine orders his dials from Decors Guilloche as stated on the certificate. I am not a guilloche expert either but I really need to show you this dial one day!

Nice! Congratulations on the acquisition, and thanks for posting the photos!

 
 By: countzero : September 2nd, 2021-09:09
Feel free to post more. ;-) Including live photos of the movement - would be interesting to get a better idea of the level of finishing that Vaucher applies, which is obviously very high in particular relative to the price bucket. That said, of course the... 

Thank you very much!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-09:16
This watch is indeed a superb watch in any price bracket let alone the one it falls into. Rarely have I found a watch that has in my opinion almost no flaws. The strap, the buckle, the weight, all perfect!

Thank you Nico!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-09:22
I too prefer manually wound movements and I find myself winding my automatic watches daily too But this watch is all about the dial. The fact that it has a lovely looking movement is a huge bonus!

Agreed.

 
 By: amanico : September 3rd, 2021-06:56

Wow!

 
 By: m2 : September 2nd, 2021-11:21
Great dial choice. That angle to the right of the Swiss Made writing on the back looks great. :0 What do you think of the finish? Looks way way better than what the big boys offer in the same range?!

Thank you for saying so!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-11:56
The finish of the Vaucher movements (owned by Parmigiani) tend to be better than many of the more illustrious larger brands. The fact that Torsti Laine has engraved the mini rotor makes the movement a bit special. We don't often see mini rotors being engr... 

Great!

 
 By: m2 : September 2nd, 2021-23:16
Yeah Vaucher is really nice. I looked through their site before and didn't see their pieces finished to that extent though so I'm assuming Laine did it himself. You really don't tend to see angles like that unless you go 5x the price. Not helping me resis... 

You should order one as I have already asked Torsti Laine

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-00:06
about another dial variation for the V38. If you order one now, you'd get it before Christmas! (promise, I am not on any commission here! ) Rarely does one find a watch with a mesmersing dial coupled with a well finished movement at a highly attractive pr...  

That's absolutely correct

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-00:35
Part of the agreement that Vaucher has put in place when it outsources its movements is that the movement must remain the same and not be decorated apart from the mini rotor.

Thanks for your kind words!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-11:59
I am just surprised not more purists and collectors buy Laine watches because it must be one of the most under rated brands around. Yes the movement may not be proprietary but neither are those used by Pascal Coyon and a certain Mt. Philip Dufour.

Well said 👍

 
 By: holdemchamp1225 : September 2nd, 2021-12:32

Thank you! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-12:38
Love at first sight is a term loosely used but when I first opened the box, that is exactly how I felt.

I actually meant 'Mr' Philip Dufour

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-17:05
but my typing skills rival my photography skills

I didn’t even notice the typo, but I loved how you

 
 By: Lankysudanese : September 2nd, 2021-17:08
pointed a commonly-unknown fact

Credit to Monsieurs Coyon and Dufour

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-17:11
for turning fine finishing into an art form!

Very nice, Sham.

 
 By: TheMadDruid : September 2nd, 2021-12:03
That is quite the dial. Have fun with it!

Thanks Mike!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-12:12
Seldom has such apprehensiveness in purchasing a watch especially while opening the packaging earlier today turn into such a pleasant surprise and the ultimate joy! The blue guilloche dial could not have been a better hue.

Well, you know what they say...

 
 By: TheMadDruid : September 2nd, 2021-12:51

I know I am supposed to know

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-12:57
but I have no idea!

Blue is the new blue duh 😒

 
 By: TheMadDruid : September 2nd, 2021-14:34

I had never heard that before actually!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-14:41
Now that MadDruid nickname is making more sense

You’re very kind.

 
 By: TheMadDruid : September 2nd, 2021-15:41
😌

I have my moments :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-15:57

Sham, congrats and well chosen! You deserve the hand shake you gave yourself !

 
 By: Jay (Eire) : September 2nd, 2021-12:54
I’ve been contemplating switching my original (40.5mm) for this new reference, as like you the smaller watch would be a better fit for my wrist. I’m glad you had the willpower to hold off, and therefore be ultimately rewarded when Laine announced this new... 

Thank you Jay!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-13:00
With me, no matter how lovely a watch is, it has to fit my small wrist. The AD in Singapore introduced me to this brand two years ago but the 40.5mm watch just felt a tad too large. Unfortunately, the retailer has stopped selling the brand so I am very pl... 

Super cool! The dial us superb and the movement finishing seems excellent!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 2nd, 2021-15:03
I asked Mr. Laine if he'd consider a precious metal case. He said no, but if he changes his mind, I'll strongly consider it!

I am just the opposite

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-15:09
as I like my watches as light as possible and precious metal watches tend to be heavier! Okay, okay, admittedly steel is also a lot more affordable, an important factor when one is already retired Hopefully, Laine will be able to accommodate your request ... 

Please write me, Mr. Laine!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 2nd, 2021-18:47
I would for sure be wearing it and writing about it!

That's the spirit!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-18:52
With that note, the sky is now the limit

Ha! ha!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-19:39
Not sure if Torsti Laine would give that any weight but considering it is 3,40am here, I am still wide awake thinking about this new watch of mine,

🥱😴😴😴

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 2nd, 2021-21:50

Worse still

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-23:51
I have just asked Torsti how much it would cost to make a V38 with this dial ...  

Which precious metal exactly?

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-01:47
And which model please?

The Sham1 model (I thought that was the V38?)

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 3rd, 2021-02:12
I think I asked before for the stealth 18k grey gold (25% palladium, 75%gold). But I think 18k yellow gold would be great as well if the grey is too much like steel (which is why I like it). I'd get the same guilloché as you (for we are brothers), but dif... 

You do realise flattery will get you everywhere with me! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-02:19
Unfortunately my charm offensive on Torsti Laine may not have the same effect but one can try I will send him a message after he wakes up! If he had said no to you, chances are his stand will be similar with me.

Well, I do appreciate the good intention!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 3rd, 2021-02:30
Please do ask him, many thanks!

I definitely will and get back to you

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-02:34
as soon as I hear from him.

And here is Torsti Laine's reply

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-10:23
'This is sometimes asked from me and it is quite complicated as ordering just one case would be really expensive, and ordering many in stock would be also expensive, for me. So, in principle no, not available at the moment'. So sorry my friend - I think i... 

I'm glad you asked! Thanks!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 3rd, 2021-11:27

You are very welcome!

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-13:39
Torsti would be happy to make a precious metal watch for you if you can secure five orders!!

Hmm, did he mention a price point?

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 3rd, 2021-14:44

Is that before of after my commission?! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-14:52
But seriously speaking, I have asked Torsti and await a reply.

Commission? We're naming it after you!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 3rd, 2021-15:08

Darn! Can't say I did not try :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-15:23
It looks like my next V38 will take a little longer then

Here is the information you requested for

 
 By: sham1 : September 4th, 2021-05:00
An additional 8k CHF for rose gold and an additional 9k CHF for white gold.

Thanks, that's not bad at all!

 
 By: Spangles - Dr. Tabby : September 4th, 2021-13:31
Looks like yellow is not on the menu 🤷‍♂️ Companies like to offer rose and steel, but I wonder if I posted on a variety of watch boards would it be possible to get 4 additional people going for white gold? The discussions would inevitably devolve into "st... 

It should not be too difficult

 
 By: sham1 : September 4th, 2021-13:38
to get 4 others keen on spending less than 20k CHF on a white gold watch with an amazing personalised dial. Notice that I had made a special request for Breguet hands on my watch which are non standard for Laine. I think they give the dial even more chara... 

Rose!

 
 By: TheMadDruid : September 18th, 2021-20:04
Rose 🌹 Rose 🥀 I could be a maybe for 🌹🥀🤷🏼‍♀️

Two down, three more to go! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 18th, 2021-23:53
I am pretty sure that your 'maybe' can be turned into a definite yes by a gorgeous dial!

Spectacular acquisition

 
 By: mhz vph : September 2nd, 2021-15:45
The V38 is a real step up from previous offerings. The polished hands are amazing, and the case is also an improvement from the G2, in my opinion. Beautiful!

Thank you for your feedback!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-16:00
I agree with you that the V38 is Laine increasing the bar. Yes a manual movement would have been desirable but now at least the company has an automatic watch in its range and it is a lovely movement. I always feel that 38mm is a better size for a dress w... 

And much thinner too!

 
 By: mhz vph : September 2nd, 2021-17:00

Yes that is always an added attraction :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-17:03
Wearing a thin watch does give one a certain peace of mind!

Big congrats! This a great addition!

 
 By: Chronometer (aka yacomino) : September 2nd, 2021-16:15

Thank you very much for saying so!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-16:30
I have added quite a few watches lately but this is by far the most beautiful. In fact, I would go as far as saying this is without doubt one of my best three watch acquisitions of all time!

What a difference one night makes!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-16:36
Only last night I was trying to figure out what I would do with the watch should the dial colour not be to my satisfaction. The Collectors Market came to mind as did a reputable used dealer in town. 24 hours later, I can safely confirm that this watch is ... 

Cool! 👍

 
 By: Chronometer (aka yacomino) : September 2nd, 2021-16:45

Very many congratulations and welcome to the club

 
 By: Age_of_Surfaces : September 2nd, 2021-16:28
You've made a fine choice and the watch looks wonderful (the photographs are fine too, I just turned my computer 90 degrees to the right to enjoy them). Torsti does make good watches, and this latest one is a positive, natural evolution. I truly hope you'...  

Thanks for sharing your lovely watch with us!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-16:33
I like the way how the dial changes colour depending on the light. And the movement on your watch may be a Unitas but it looks amazing!

Enjoy your lovely timepiece!

 
 By: sham1 : September 4th, 2021-04:31
I love my V38 so much that I am tempted to order another one with a different dial

Thank you Markus!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-17:00
I had no idea that this watch would be so well received by my fellow purists.

Congratulations!!

 
 By: kcinemod : September 2nd, 2021-20:48
Gorgeous dial!!

Thanks a lot!

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-23:49
That dial allowed me only 3 hours of sleep last night!

All the positive adjectives!!!

 
 By: Spencer Karrington : September 2nd, 2021-22:50
Fantastic, amazing, .... watch! Congrats on this great purchase! P.S. how do you like this movement in comparison to the older movements? It is better made BUT not as customized as the previous movements?

I like this movement a lot

 
 By: sham1 : September 2nd, 2021-23:56
because even though it is not as customised as the manual winding Unitas base movement, the quality of the Vaucher movement for a start is reputedly superior in terms of finishing and time keeping which for me personally is more important that a movement ... 

That makes a lot of sense!

 
 By: Spencer Karrington : September 15th, 2021-19:22
It truly is a matter of personal taste as that makes the world go round, if everyone had the same taste, the world would be soooo boring!!!! I totally dig what you mean about finishing and time keeping! What a gorgeous watch in any case and congrats on th... 

Thank you for your comments Spencer!

 
 By: sham1 : September 15th, 2021-19:52
The watch has been keeping excellent time and the dial remains mesmerising!

Agreed 100%!

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-00:01
As if that was not bad enough, I have just contacted Torsti Laine to ask him about a watch with this dial What do you think?! ...  

Gorgeous as well!

 
 By: jleno : September 3rd, 2021-01:36
From the pictures on Laine's website, I thought a lot of the salmon dials were particularly striking too. Might have to consider one for myself!

Yes the beige or salmon dial watches look particularly enticing

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-01:50
I think an important consideration would also be one's skin tone

Wait Time

 
 By: WatchLoverForever : September 3rd, 2021-01:20
How long was the wait time?

Four months and one week to be precise

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-01:49
from the date of order to the day I received it. It was supposed to take no longer than 3 months but there was a delay from the dial supplier.

Fantastic

 
 By: Blue and White : September 3rd, 2021-10:11
You have opted for such a beautiful time piece, so elegant and refined. Wear in best of health.

Thank you so much for saying so!

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-10:17
I have a bias towards dress watches so if you give me a Nautilus or a Daytona, I would be quite lost

Congratulations, my friend

 
 By: rnaden : September 3rd, 2021-11:45
Quite a few watches of yours for me to catch up on when we get to meet up This is really nice - dial aside, which looks fabulous - lots of depth and detail and the colour is really cool as well; I love the micro rotor too. A micro rotor movement is an aut... 

Thanks Richard!

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-13:42
I look forward to showing this watch to you. It will hopefully be a trio of blue watches - the Laine, the GS SBGY007 and the Kurono Seiji if I am successful (Big IF!!!)

Wow huge Congrats my friend, excellent choice.

 
 By: Watchonthewrist : September 3rd, 2021-15:15
I have been looking at one of these for some time now but didn’t pull the trigger yet . Your dial looks stunning . Excellent choice . Love the dial pattern and these numerals a lot .also that movement with that micro rotor looks amazing Wear it in best of... 

Thank you so much my friend!

 
 By: sham1 : September 3rd, 2021-15:28
You should really get one - I have had quite a few watches from independents and this is one of the best overall watches taking into account the dial, movement, case, hands, numerals and purchase experience. Now all I hope is for it to keep good time whic... 

Congrats Sham!

 
 By: NT931 : September 14th, 2021-08:20
This V38 looks absolutely awesome and perfectly sized at 38mm. Can't believe I missed reading your post til today! I'm eagerly awaiting mine too (hopefully to arrive before X'mas), and your V38 is making me salivate in anticipation. Once again, congrats t... 

I too can't believe that you have read my post until today!! :-)

 
 By: sham1 : September 14th, 2021-08:45
But thank you for replying and please share with us your new arrival when you receive it. I am tempted to order another V38 as after 11 days of ownership, mine is not just totally alluring but it is keeping magnificent time. Only my Grand Seiko SBGY007 wi... 

haha yes! I had missed your lovely post as I was distracted with my new Holthinrichs

 
 By: NT931 : September 14th, 2021-11:41
My incoming V38 is in salmon, and like you , I was trying to decide between the many lovely dial options. Each time I thought I settled on one, there would be another dial popping up on Instagram making me go "oooooh", eg the purple + meteorite dial on th... 

So is your salmon dial a triple guilloche or

 
 By: sham1 : September 14th, 2021-13:37
is it guilloche in the middle and hammered surrounding it? Those dials too were very attractive. May I ask when you ordered yours? I believe the waiting list is getting longer.

I ordered it at the end of May...

 
 By: NT931 : September 14th, 2021-14:05
... and yes, with the guilloche centre, and the hammered outer ring. I had initially thought of the triple guilloche but realized it would be too similar to my 1941 Remontoire, so I went for a slightly different look. And you're right, the waiting time no... 

Good choice of dial!

 
 By: sham1 : September 14th, 2021-15:29
And yes I too am glad that Torsti Laine is finally getting the acknowledgement he deserves. So it looks like if I order a second Laine, I will be receiving it next year. Worth the wait!

Congrats on another simply sublime acquisition

 
 By: xplorer2 : September 17th, 2021-09:25
Sham, I am beginning to be really apprehensive in clicking into acquisitiosn posts nowadays as they can be extremely dangerous to the bank account.....Upon picking up the SBGY007 Omiwatari, I am now haunted with a Salmon dial V38. Must resist......but tha... 

The salmon dial V38 is a beautiful looking piece!

 
 By: sham1 : September 17th, 2021-10:25
Hammered outer dial, guilloche inner dial, you have excellent taste and if you are really following my acquisition trail, then, you must consider my next incoming! The Murakumo by Kikuchi Nakagawa which coincidentally uses the same movement as the Laine V...  

We must be thinking alike!!

 
 By: xplorer2 : September 17th, 2021-11:16
The Murakumo is on my consideration list - the finishing on the hands as well as entire black polish case is insane. The other one I am seriously contemplating with the Murakumo is from Naoya Hida. I have enquired about the Murakumo and have been advised ... 

Yes Naoyo Hida produces lovely watches too but

 
 By: sham1 : September 17th, 2021-11:26
the black poilshing on the Murakumo rivals that by Akrivia and we all know how much those watches cost. So it seems that the waiting list on the Murakumo has also increased like most European independents. Go for the Naoyo Hida if you cannot wait but for ...