CL
2722
Let's discuss about Restoration, the 'Taboo' topic :-)
Restoration and refinished watches are terms that many vintage collectors frowned upon and possibly continuing so but then there are always exception that no one mentions. For example, we will hear many vintage collectors mention that they will not touch watches that have been refinished but in some cases, we will see great examples of rare vintage watches with signature losing an accent, losing a comma or even partially faded being very sought after by the same group of vintage collectors. So, there are always exception, depending how much one desire to own that piece.
Fast forward to current time, with many new sophisticated young collectors who started with contemporary collection and maybe now starts to dabble into vintage pieces. These collectors are used to manufacturers doing laser welding to their well worn watches or having their dial replaced by the manufacturers, always maintaining their watches in a pristine condition. Over polishing is a story of the past as any good restorer can refinish your case to exact factory spec. Even the dial, in the past we have bad refinishing dials done but nowadays, manufacturers can refinish the dial to original spec too. There is also dial maker manufacturer such as The Cadraniers de Geneve who can partially or completely restore any dials back to original state because they have the dial stamps.
So, the question for collectors in current time, which means all of us here...do we still highly objecting this restoration craft or are we slowly opening up to it now?
I have been researching on vintage patek lately and have come across many many specimens. To be honest, some examples I know have dial switch, dial refinish, case refinish but mostly claimed by the dealers and owners that they are untouched. Some of them do not know what to look at and some of the watches are just simply very well refinished that even Patek says nothing about it. This restoration craft when it is done by the high end watchmakers, it is impossible to tell. So for example, you may have a 1940-1950s watch being restored now to a very great example and then you wear it for the next 20-30 years and it starts to build its own patina, how can one tell if this watch is indeed untouched from the beginning? Does the auction house truly know? From my experience, most of them don't.
Okay, enough of my messy ranting 
. I am curious what is your thought on this topic.
. I am curious what is your thought on this topic.
Let's discuss about Restoration, the 'Taboo' topic :-)
Restoration and refinished watches are terms that many vintage collectors frowned upon and possibly continuing so but then there are always exception that no one mentions. For example, we will hear many vintage collectors mention that they will not touch ...
If you get right down to it
I think the only people who truly know are 1: the guy who did the restoration/refinish, and 2: the guy who had it done.
Not all...
but in current time with current technology and skill, you are perfectly correct. I spoke at length with watchmakers and it is truly extremely hard to tell nowadays. At best, it will just be a guess after they look at the watch under high magnification. T...
I do not have enough “Vintage” experience to say,
but I do hope some of our more seasoned colleagues will contribute to this post! 6 years ago,I sent a 1949 Patek Philippe1526 to Patek in Switzerland for a complete service. The watch came back after about 9 months and was absolutely beautiful! The dial h...
Do you have pictures of the watch before and after?
Very likely, what they did was to remove the old varnish and then apply a new one. This process alone can clean lots of marks and discoloration. But usually when it was done wrong, it removes the signature and stamping. Manufacturer now has all these stam...
Not Patek collector, but...
I recently ordered restoration of 48 year old king Seiko. The watch is quite special as is from by birth Year and Actually letters KS are my initials. My restoration is limited to case and crystal. And then checking and piling movement. In case there will...
Beautiful watch...
are you sending this to Poland or you have someoe who does Zaratsu polishing for you in Japan. Such technique requires highly skilled people and your watch will be great for this.
There is one Guy in Poland. Kamil
He is well known for its restoration of zaratsu. Check Lapinist And other. Not so perfect in zaratsu (jet) as Kamil, but you don’t have to wait 1 year in queue. He is excellent in AP. Old watches - second life here ...
Yes that is the Polish guy.
I think his restoration work is amazing and very respectful of the original work. There is also one in US co-owned by Eric Ku. I have seen them doing many amazing work on Paul Newman Daytona. It is said that many pieces went to them from auction houses. T...
Yes. AP is well done.
I spend hours discussing with guy who made this restoration. He is self made guy, hobbyist - he is creating all tools by himself, experimenting with textures and materials. Very passionate person.
A Hobbyist does that?
First of all, I applaud you to have a hobbyist operate on your beautiful AP. How did you gather so much courage? And how does a hobbyist make this wonderful restoration that most watchmaker fail. Wow.
Unfortunately AP is not mine.
I used picture of this work to show sample. I used to do polish of scratches On AP bezel and bracelet. The work is same as factory. Guy is really passionate and talented. He claims that perfect zaratsu is harder to perform than AP.
So you are referring to the Polish guy?
he is a hobbyist? Impressive. Zaratsu is incredibly difficult. I was just taking to Alkis (Lange service watch maker) a few weeks ago about this technique. He said he had seen Lange people attempt it before and it is incredibly difficult. That's why Grand...
Well.
They charge for their work, both of them, but those are self made mans. Maybe now they are not hobbyists anymore, but few years back. Kamil, first guy he is now recognized in Grand Seiko collectors and has plenty of work, but this is still quite fresh. Ha...
I think watches in the 50 and 60s
tend to have a certain geometry shape in them so it is easier to restore it correctly if one pay a lot of attention to detail and respect the history of the watch, They should be proud of their skill. Bravo.
You pose an excellent question here but to me it can't be answered with a simple yes or no as there are so many different situations. I can appreciate not wanting to touch an older vintage
piece that has been well taken care of with minimal marks, issues... patina. With dials some folks love age related fading or color changes. Over polishing to the point of a case losing proper shape or contour must be avoided. Removing small marks from a ...
Totally agree with your points.
There is no straight yes or no answer. I love patina on Vintage watches if they are nice. These are patina that are built up by time and one should learn to appreciate it. Then, there are incidents when there is water leak or careless watchmakers' marks t...
Entirely dependent on the watch I think.
Personally I don’t see the problem, if it “fits” the situation and the particular watch and it can be done to the standard the remains true to the original. The problem of course is the other issue you have identified, misrepresentation or simply honest m...
I am curious...
you pass those watches because they are not well done or because they are restored? If you didn't know they were restored, you will be okay? This is the same as Vacheron 's own Les Collectionneurs. Even though they are all very carefully restored by Vache...
They were well done, very well done it seemed.
And that was the issue, they just looked too good and so for me lost some of the appeal. If I thought, or was sold into believing, that they were NOS or original mint condition then honestly I would have looked at them more favorably. But for watches that...
You can make them look old again...
by adding your 'patina' due to daily wear . I do agree very much with what Dr No said though which is similar to yours
I'm reminded of a French saying that the law prohibiting one from sleeping under a bridge . . .
. . . applies to rich and poor alike. 😏 The issue you've raised applies to vintages that command a premium. No such conundrum with, say, Omegas. Who would invest countless hours of painstaking restorative care for a watch that would bring relatively few d...
That's a BRILLIANT point :-)
Your image and what you said really resonate with me. So true, so true, I do start to see your point clearly now Thank you.
One small thing to correct
not all that go through such restoration are not exactly vintages that command high premium. For example those highly sharp cases of vintage Seiko. Many collectors are getting those to seek the Zaratsu polishing. It becomes a trend for the younger collect...
I understand and agree with the point you're making, CL. 'Old hands' wouldn't think of restoring . . .
. . . a vintage KS / GS case. Those new to the game might well value contemporary appearance over the vicissitudes of aging. Art
You word it much better than me....
I am seeing lots of these 'new' collectors now. They are very knowledgable bunch, just a different and more 'open minded' take on how vintage watches can be. No right or wrong, just different opinions. That's probably why we start to see 60s and 70s watch...
Rarity would do it for me..
Like how restoration is acceptable to, say, paintings. Because it was lost to the ages, there's only one, and I'd want to see how it looked like and (for watches) there was no other specimen in existence. I have this old Omega bumper that I planned on hav...
Your Omega is beautiful...
and I actually love the patina. So, if that is my watch, I won't do anything to it. But if such watch has a condition that looks unpleasant, I won't hesitate. As for how they clean the dial...I would suspect that most issue comes from the old varnish. So,...
Please don't risk damaging the dial, Echi. If you send it to Omega, they will probably honor . . .
. . . a request to leave the dial alone (no guarantees, though). They will likely change hands and crown if compromised even slightly. Ask me how I know. 😬 Best to find a competent, sensitive, and attentive watchmaker. Which is slightly easier than skiing...
Thanks, guys. Don't worry, I'd rather let this one sit inside a box than have the dial touched..
You guys are right about Bienne of course. I'm sure they'd do it right with very specific instructions. Just need to get around to it at some point
But honestly...
I don't think it is difficult to restore your watch case back to original state. Not through Omega though. I don;t think they are able to do such project. You will need someone who specialize in case restoration and who is extremely respectful of the hist...
I think this is quite similar to us aging...
there are people who will go for plastic surgery and there are some who will go for some non invasive treatment to delay aging. I think these watches are taking the same path as humans, except they will most likely outlive us
