Incandenza
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I certainly did not intend to be disrespectful
However, when you are selling watches for US$345k with substantially the same movement as Girard Perregaux, Ralph Lauren, Louis Vuitton and Speake-Marin (amongst others), you should expect some scrutiny. Kari is always very frank and up-front about the source of his movements. Quite frankly, LF is not. His own website states that everything is made in house, and his CEO has posted on this forum that all movements are exclusively designed for LF. Many journalists also believe that LF is fully in-house. I am sorry if I offended anyone, but it was necessary. This shouldn’t just be a place for congratulatory wristshots, but for real discussion (IMHO).
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I find the recent attacks on Laurent Ferrier completely distasteful.
Laurent Ferrier presented at Basel a minute repeater that sounds amazing. That's extremely hard to achieve however you do it. Nobody calls Kari an "assembler" for using pocket watch movements as a base for his decimal repeaters. But what I find really dis...
We have some pranksters who’ve been having fun but the humor is wearing thin
Periodically things like this arise - it’s not an issue of sponsorship, other than perhaps that we have no one individual who is charged with protecting and defending LP (or other smaller names). So let’s return to being gentlemen, please. Cazalea
+2 a beautiful timepiece remains just as beautiful...
... if there are helping hands to achieve something that brings joy to the owner. I may be hopelessly romantic, but the magic of a timepiece is what the passion is all about. I can appreciate transparency, but love is created by the magic. And magic never...
“love is created by magic, and magic never goes well with total transparency”
A point well worth remembering, and probably worthy of its own thread and discussion. The extreme alternative to this thought is total disenchantment with the whole business. And we don’t want that! Cazalea
Cazalea
I always appreciate your comments and am inspired by everything you contribute... but... we can not be afraid of watchmakers feeling disenchantment with the whole business... this IS THEIR BUSINESS. And it is no small profit to them, if we consider the hi...
I have heard watchmakers say the same thing about PP, in private.
I don't own any PP, as a result.
I mostly agree with you
My Patek collection consists of one scruffy vintage Calatrava I bought from a divorced guy needing quick cash. Personally, I’ve never seen the Patek magic. Cazalea
I think you missed the point
The issue is the lack of transparency, not outsourcing of the movement. I agree that some brands might receive a better approach, but recently VC had been blamed for having put a cartier in its entry level Anyway, I find nothing impressive in a 14 mm thic...
The whole industry has issues with transparency.
It is a topic that should be discussed but LF is not worse than most, whether you compare them to independents or established brands. By your criteria the GF super-sonnerie is substandard, I would politely disagree.
Ok, perhaps I can't express myself
Who did say that LG is worse than PP? I won't make the mistake to compare different companies, with different history and mostly different revenue. A purist has shown some evidences by which the LG minute repeater is very similar to other minute repeaters...
I learned a few things about LF
and ended up appreciating the brand more. No, they are not a one man shop like Voutilainen. Yes, there is corporate approach towards self-promotion. But the history is there for anyone to learn about if it someone is interested or concerned about the "int...
One man shop.
Last week I learned from Kari Voutilainen‘s own mouth that he has 22 people working for him, building his watches. Before I learned this I had a more romantic conception of his work though I already knew that he is earning his living by supplying parts to...
If you have the chance...
Do go visit his atelier. Your romantic notion will return, even if there are 22 employees involved 👍🏻
Imagine if the major brands were equally transparent...
We would be staring into the abyss
Kari is also relatively over-rated... I'm sorry
he makes too many variations... and his watches, while at a level that is excellent and rare... are diminished by his making too many pointless and unimportant variations.... His movements are excellent, of course, but his excellence is diminished by his ...
From knowing and owning a Kari..
I would have to defend him and say they are not overrated at all. He is not producing a massive numbers of watches per year (increase in dial making for third parties, etc), but is actually personally connecting with the buyers and collectors of his watch...
Isn’t the whole point of independents “making what the clients want”?
The reason the majority of people dependent buyers go that route is that they can have a watch made following their requests
Hi Alex
Hard to respect a collector more than you, my friend, but I do disagree. My view is that Kari dilutes his status when he says yes to everything. I agree that in general YES, it's the essence of the independent maker to provide 'anything' asked of him, if ...
Thank you for your kind words my friend. I can see what you mean but
I think we tend to forget that these independent brands/artisans are tiny little entrepreneurs who need to cater to the desires of their clients or they will disappear. Kari makes about 50-60 watches a year, we tend to constantly see the same watches with...
I will add to the disagreements
That Kari makes a bespoke watch according to what clients want is a strong positive.
+1 ‘... learned a lot more about what type of collector I do not want to become ...”
100% agree ... yes to passion, yes to a shared love of horology and beauty, yes to objective and informative comment BUT the tone of some of the exchanges here have been a complete and utter turn off.
I certainly did not intend to be disrespectful
However, when you are selling watches for US$345k with substantially the same movement as Girard Perregaux, Ralph Lauren, Louis Vuitton and Speake-Marin (amongst others), you should expect some scrutiny. Kari is always very frank and up-front about the so...
Fully agree with you.
I, for one, did not know that about those same ‘base’ movements and found it very interesting to learn. Still love the LF square galet as much as before, but I also love getting to know what’s behind a brand or watch model. The transparency in the watch w...
+1 on bringing up this real discussion. Some here think this is attack/prank/distasteful and not being a Gentleman which I find hilarious. Just wristshots of 40k+ watches...
...and sucking up don't make a GM. I love LF, Kari, AP, Patek and all watches but am open to knowledgeable debates like this. This is what I seek and expect from this forum much more than just wrist shots
My issue wasn't really with your main post, rather with the discussion that followed.
You brought up a valid question. But setting the tone does matter, better be factual and talk specifics as you did above rather than immediately questioning the integrity of the whole operation.
+1 Fact base and pictorial evidence is compelling
As stated before, we have Incandenza sharing very compelling and visibly clear evidence that something is amiss here or at the very minimum misleading in terms of marketing communications and transparency. Most of the LF defenders are arguing on the basis...
You could just politely email Madame Monestel yourself :)
She has actually been very open and deserves huge credit for that. If you need her email, PM me. +1 on your points, it's our money But just be mindful that the agreements around who owns what IP in these movements, both background and foreground, and the ...
Ferrier is a NICE brand...
It's not that great... It's VERY NICE. FERRIER makes watches others could make, particularly the dials... Can we be real? Ferrier is very, very nice, but nothing more... It's NOT like some be-all end of the world manufacture... It's not at all even slight...
I guess the post was rather harsh
LF just unfortunately got singled out for it. There are also defenders of the brand if I recall and they do produce nice products. I am a fan myself. There is definitely unfairness in the treatment of brands, eg like PP. They make really nice movements in...
The LOW to MID END IS CELEBRATED
nwk00 that is really insightful and accurate... except I don't agree that they make high end movements worth celebrating.. they make "really nice to above-average movements" outrageously advertised by thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of ...
Hundreds of thousands of $ in LF advertising?
For a brand that makes 100 watches a year?!
Counterpoint: The Patek cal CHR 27-525 PS
The ultra-thin rattrapante movement beat the previous record by over a mm when it was released in 2005. At the time it was peerless. Now, it is joined by Vacheron Constantine's Calibre 3500. The Patek is arguably more beautiful, but I think both movement ...
Guys, a reminder to mind the tone of the discussion here!
we at PuristSPro have nothing against a passionate exchange of ideas and opinions (its quite the essence of PuristSPro), but please remember that we consider ourselves being guests at a dinner party, and that we want to enjoy our time here. Thus, please t...
Perhaps the follow on, and in my opinion humorous, posts could have been avoided HOWEVER
the original post and the discussion is 100% necessary. Where else are these discussions going to be had, aside from in person with other collectors. Not everyone has the ability to meet other collectors on a regular basis and so rely on places like this ...
There is criticism and there is character assassination.
Nobody is suggesting that such posts are not welcomed. But we should talk about the specific issue that is being pointed out. And all brands should be open to the same level of scrutiny. In the follow up discussion about LF I saw very little constructive ...
