Are auctions really such bad institutions for watch collectors? I don't think so!

Nov 10, 2018,02:43 AM
 

I fully understand when owners of stolen watches that turned up at auctions get hatred, especially when there is then no cooperation to reinstate proper ownership. But I believe such watches will also find their way to “brick & mortar” dealers, only that then the watches become not so visible.

But I am rather surprised with what words (including “scam”) the business model as such is criticized here, when only recently questioning the value proposition of a certain brand brought the risk of a ban on this forum with it. I think, the continued demand in both cases is self-justifying the “fees” asked and they cannot be the basis for an absolute judgement when no goods or services required for one’s life are involved.

That there is no room for buyer’s remorse in auction deals is part of the game since ages. But what is so bad in the idea that the buyer has the obligation to make the necessary research and checks on goods he wants to buy? Internet and digital photos have made fulfilling these obligations really much easier. Every auctioneer offers also personal inspection of the watches before the auction, often supported by competent watchmakers on hand at the viewings to help with the examination.

With only experiences as buyer, I would therefore like to offer the following thoughts, not the least in an effort to not turn possible novice collectors away from a valuable supply source:

I dealt in my 15 years of collecting with all the better known auction houses. There was never reason to complain about the service I received from any of these auction houses (unlike what I experienced with brand boutiques when I bought by mail order abroad). Even when the auction conditions stated the buyer has to arrange for shipping, the auction houses have always arranged this for me at very fair prices, providing not the least of hassles.

When I could not inspect the watch of interest personally and could also not instruct a local competent watchmaker to check for me, I asked for high resolution photos and always got them from the auction houses. On the other hand, I regard the condition reports of the auction houses as useless, because they are generally too vague and riddled with provisos.

I would also never place a written bid with the auctioneer when willing to pay more than the low estimate (on the off-chance that nobody else is interested in this watch). Such bids offer just too much temptation not to knock down the watch at the best possible price for you as buyer, even when promised in the auction conditions. I rather bid by telephone, even when I was before at the place of the auction to inspect the watch. This method gives me enough time to think about placing the next bid, because the assistant at the telephone with you has the full attention of the auctioneer and can slightly delay proceedings if you have reached a critical sum. I also believe to get through the telephone a good impression how much interest by other bidders is available (you hear what is going on in the room), while being able not to show my own excitement to the auctioneer.

At the beginning of my collecting I got burned by buying a re-dialled watch, but I can only blame myself, because a minimum of research would have shown this problem. Collecting world time watches I am usually not confronted with highly complicated movements. With 60+ year old mechanical constructions issues are highly likely. With this kind of watches I see this not as a problem and I prefer an untouched movement with a broken gearwheel, e.g., rather than having to sort repair attempts by an incompetent watchmaker. Independent master watchmakers repair then the watches properly for me at very bearable prices, allowing me also to retain and store the broken part with the watch (for the sake of documenting originality).

To buy common watches with a high demand at auction makes perhaps not a lot of sense. But there are two fields in my opinion where great acquisitions are possible:

The first group are “exotic” watches of recent production (including watches of independent manufacturers). In the last few years the auctions in Hong Kong were a treasure trove to acquire new or virtually new watches with the full set at very favourable prices even when considering buyer’s fee of 25% and VAT upon importation. These watches were often offered by the smaller watch auctioneers (like Sotheby’s and Antiquorum) that have usually a more diverse offering than the current turn-over leaders (Phillips and Christie’s).

Particularly at Antiquorum (in the Geneva auctions) I found also many watches of a few years back (from 1989 onwards) for my collection that I have before and after never seen on the market. I tried to interest a couple of (what I sought suitable) vintage watch dealers by sending them a short and illustrated list of what I am looking for (not the “hen’s teeth”), but not one acknowledged even the receipt or an interest to look for such watches. To look myself what the auction houses can offer is therefore also my only choice (when not stumbling on an offer placed in the web).

I think the pressure for the auction houses to offer several hundred interesting watches every year has established scouting troops with them. When you are looking for table and pocket watches produced in the 19th century (or even earlier), I believe that you have to rely on these specialists to entice owners to sell such pieces. Interested in the provenance of very early world time clocks and watches, I realised the Patek Philippe museum must have acquired most of these historical pieces (not bearing the PP brand name) by auction. And this certainly not because they are fools, but rather for a lack of another source even in their position.

I therefore think that this tarnishing of an industry branch with broad brushstrokes is not justified and might be a disservice to emerging collectors among the forum’s readers. When you think it is a “scam”, it could as well be part of the game in the business in which the buyers participate willingly and enthusiastically. Does really someone believe that Sotheby’s was not in the know about the Banksy-Picture-Shredding? Sotheby’s owned this piece when brought to auction, and the supposed buyer wanted to keep the shredded version, believing it is more valuable after this public performance act. While the research dates from the mid-2000s, the book “Seven Days in the Art World” by Sarah Thornton (ISBN 978 1 84708 084 4) describes a still current state of the affairs and can be thoroughly recommended. Participating at auctions and paying excessive prices for perhaps a bit dubious art is part of the social game. When reading reports about events by a well-known collector, I get sometimes the feeling this social background has also become a bit part of some watch auctions. There is really no reason to feel pity for the participants!

Björn

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PuristSPro Advice: The Perils of Buying and Selling At Auction

 
 By: patrick_y : November 8th, 2018-15:10
Moderator Patrick_y lists some true scenarios of bad behavior at auction houses so PuristSPro readers can learn the mistakes of other PuristSPro members and avoid making the mistakes themselves. Don't miss this previous thread, PuristSPro Advice: Don't Bl...  

Thank-You Patrick for a great and most useful post. If big league collectors also get conned, as in your example of Bill Koch, there's indeed good reason for everybody to be careful.

 
 By: FabR : November 8th, 2018-16:24
Personally, I've never tried to buy from auction houses yet, in part because of these unfortunate stories that periodically pop up. (In fact, I've bought all of my watches at ADs so far, though I realize I'm a fairly extreme example in this sense Some oth... 

Absolutely good advice!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 8th, 2018-20:31
Yes, do double check and always inspect the piece in advance. Bring another person who will inspect it as well. The sport of auction is to not get conned. Unfortunately, my success ratio is only around 20%. I've had a lot of bad luck with Antiquorum and B... 

Sorry you had to go through all of this Patrick, but thanks for sharing it, that's extremely useful!

 
 By: FabR : November 8th, 2018-21:25
The third incident is probably the most surreal, first thing I thought was that they were trying to build an insanity defense after the first two...Too bad that auction houses so often seem to get away with an unacceptable behavior, most likely because of... 

If you are, why care ! [nt]

 
 By: Cpt Scarlet : November 9th, 2018-15:44

Absolutely avoid an auction house if you can!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 8th, 2018-20:34
Only buy from an auction house if you HAVE TO HAVE IT and have done the utmost due diligence. Leave nothing to chance.

Frightening... But I lived that by myself, too.

 
 By: amanico : November 8th, 2018-16:32
Here is the link: www.watchprosite.com Thanks for this helpful reminder, my friend. Best, Nicolas

So sorry to read about your experience, Nico!

 
 By: BMR : November 8th, 2018-18:29
Having lost a significant part of your collection had to be hard enough, but then to have to deal with these crooks... Very sorry, my friend!

Dear Amanico

 
 By: FlyingSnoopy : November 8th, 2018-22:44
Reading about it, it is truly a sad story. I wonder if you have an update regarding the matter- did you follow the legal way? Also I read in a comment that you do not have fab or Twitter. However these two medias do offer a much wider publicity and could ... 

Thank you, Patrick, for sure this post.

 
 By: BMR : November 8th, 2018-18:27
I’ve never even thought about participating in an auction at this point, but it’s good to know of these things if that is ever a route I think about. This behavior is just criminal. How have they not been sued to eternity for this type of thing. At best t... 

Auction houses do get sued, but they generally quietly settle...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 8th, 2018-20:38
Or the auction house goes into collusion with the new owner of the item; NEW OWNER complains about something he bought at auction house; auction house helps by reselling the piece very quietly to another unsuspecting owner. The CURRENT OWNER keeps mum abo... 

great read but imo the biggest scam is their commission

 
 By: Bruno.M1 : November 8th, 2018-23:46
If a watch sell for 135K ... the seller wil get more or less 100K One third is commission fee for buyer AND seller Imagine if a real estate broker would charge the same costs The real estate puts probably weeks or months in one house ( showing it to clien... 

Yeah... 10% from the seller, and 25% buyer's premium. It's crazy.

 
 By: patrick_y : November 8th, 2018-23:51
Auction houses are in existence to make money. Why make a little when you can make a lot? For that much money, one would expect them to have experts who care. In the end, it just goes to say; retailing, overhead, and sales/marketing is a very expensive en... 

Not a scam but quite unethical

 
 By: montres1 : November 9th, 2018-06:26
I like going to auctions and I once went to the open doors for a watch sale. They had a lot of nice pieces and I was able to discuss with the expert. I highly recommend to go before the auction and inspect the pieces that you might be interest in and disc... 

Oh there are worse than that...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-00:23
There are shill bids. Things that appear to sell but don't really sell (to create a future market). I can't say much and I can't indicate anything in particular since I don't have proof. And there are marketing stories that are simply products of an inven... 

Thank you OP - some excellent advice.

 
 By: Onemorewatch : November 9th, 2018-07:38
I’ve never had any inclination to attend or bid for any watch using auctions however I recently received an unsolicited call From them prior to a recent antiquorom event in where they asked me if I wanted to sell any of my watches. I can only assume they ... 

Avoid them if you can!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-00:18
If you don't need to sell or buy through an auction house, best to avoid them. Wait until you have a problem with an auction house, it may be worse than "a little uncomfortable." I can tell, you're a fairly careful individual, I think you'll be okay. Just... 

Oops on the spelling!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-00:16
I don't claim to be a Banksy expert, apparently I even spelled it incorrectly. Apologies! Banksy admitted to building the frame with the shredder involved. He even posted a video on social media of him constructing the frame and testing it.

Spelling corrected. [nt]

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-00:24

Great post..

 
 By: Cpt Scarlet : November 9th, 2018-15:47
I could tell some hair raising stories about Auction Houses but it’s best left to another time. Basically avoid at all costs.

Feel free to give us a taste during next Halloween...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-00:15
We should tell campfire stories of the horrors of auction house mistakes... I remember, back in my Scouting days, we would tell scary stories around a campfire... We should have a group of watch fans around a campfire trading scary stories; I bet a lot of... 

👍 [nt]

 
 By: Cpt Scarlet : November 10th, 2018-16:02

Are auctions really such bad institutions for watch collectors? I don't think so!

 
 By: BjoernM21 : November 10th, 2018-02:43
I fully understand when owners of stolen watches that turned up at auctions get hatred, especially when there is then no cooperation to reinstate proper ownership. But I believe such watches will also find their way to “brick & mortar” dealers, only that ... 

Excellent comments as well! Thank you for sharing with us your experiences...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 10th, 2018-09:31
Definitely nobody is going to ban you for your fine post above. So no worries there. I thank you for your thoughtful and well crafted response. Fortunately for you, you've been the recipient of good service at an auction house. This probably happened beca... 

I'm glad you got into auctions before the World Wide Web became mainstream

 
 By: TS1987 : November 12th, 2018-11:34
All these horror stories are not made up and they seem to be during the Internet Age. None of the auction houses are suing us for defamation or slander.

Probably happened before the internet age too...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 12th, 2018-11:55
But probably back before the internet age; auction houses were more "gentlemanly" perhaps? Fewer mistakes were made? When mistakes were made, the auction houses took care of the customers better? Who knows... But I know this much, since I started buying a... 

Ouch

 
 By: TS1987 : November 12th, 2018-12:03
Thank goodness for PayPal now. At least there's a little bit of hope

Way too long after 90 days for Paypal to do anything...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 13th, 2018-00:58
Credit cards and Paypal won't do anything after 90 days. It may take a while for you to notice the problem. It took me many months, maybe over a year, until I got the watch to the factory (I live in USA, not in Europe) in Europe to get the watches restore... 

Ouch [nt]

 
 By: TS1987 : November 13th, 2018-03:07

Definitely. There are successes at auction.

 
 By: patrick_y : November 11th, 2018-11:40
But many people who are regular buyers at auction houses eventually get burned. Some of them come back. Some of them stop. Look at Auction Houses dealing with Rudy Kurniawan, the famous wine counterfeiter. The auction houses knew some of the bottles seeme... 

I think when you buy very old stuff

 
 By: nwk00 : November 11th, 2018-19:43
with spotty provenance or dependent on experts with conflicts of interest, there is very high probability of a conmanship going on. Auction houses are not the only places where these things happen, they just happen to be the most high profile.

Thanks!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 12th, 2018-11:49
I just saw a documentary called "Sour Grapes" this weekend about Rudy Kurniawan, the wine counterfeiter who was making fake vintage wine in his home and was selling millions worth of wine at various auction houses. Apparently, the auction houses were gett... 

Thanks for the post [nt]

 
 By: NautNut : November 11th, 2018-11:18

You're very welcome! [nt]

 
 By: patrick_y : November 11th, 2018-11:27

So great points Patrick :)

 
 By: andrewluff : November 12th, 2018-02:53
There are also some good buys as well and not all auction houses are scammers too... I think it is just to be cautious, go and see the watches in person (or someone you trust). I bought watches in auctions and so far have been lucky but then I am not buyi... 

Thank you Andrew!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 12th, 2018-11:43
Yes! I would much rather buy something from a friend whom I trust. I've bought a lot of things at auction; not just watches, but other collectible items. I can definitely say I have a lot of problems. And although I'm very careful, I feel stupid now for a... 

This is a great post

 
 By: Mr.Gatsby : November 12th, 2018-08:29
Damn these auction houses. I rather own less. I for own am really not that thrilled to participate at an auction. Neither do I have that much money to spare

Nobody likes to spare money to be cheated...

 
 By: patrick_y : November 12th, 2018-11:50
Even Bill Koch, one of the wealthiest men in the world, doesn't have money to spare to be cheated. You're on the right path!