jleno
1918
People are getting a little too fixated on the interior angles themselves I think, the general quality is more important to look at along with all of the finishing in total.
Some watches like the Credor Eichi II have no interior angles, but still have amazing anglage. Others like Charles Frodsham and Roger Smith have little to no anglage but make it up for it with finishing in other places.
I was taking a look at this macro shot of the Patek movement, and I thought it actually looked pretty good:
Very smooth and nicely rounded to my eyes at least. The main thing I do not want to see are vertical striations from machining. The other thing that is nice is that there is a lot of anglage due to how open the movement is. Keep in mind that on something like a Lange 1, the anglage is good but there is very little of it because of the 3/4 plate architecture. No interior angles on a Lange 1 either.
There are other areas where Patek could improve the finishing as well rather than adding interior angles. Adding larger black-polished components, more beveling on the gear spokes, polished teeth on some of the gears, more complex finishings on some of the wheels and the rotor. Overall, I do think Patek should be doing more for the price. At the same time though, I think non-watch collectors would think it's silly that we are claiming a 30k watch is unjustifiably expensive compared to another 30k watch just because of some inward angles on the movement.
More posts:
An observation regarding Patek 31-260 PS QL
One of the editors in another forum have pointed out the absence of interior angles in the caliber 31-260 powering the 5236P. The caliber’s bridges are rounded at the edges but the expert points out that the lack of interior angles are indicative of lack ...
This has been discussed at length on the Canadian forum so I'll repost some of it here:
Here's the thing - we aren't talking about just any half-baked nouveau hipster brand here, we are talking about The crown-less king: Patek. Scratch that: PATEK. Scratch that: PATEK PHILIPPE. Or 'PP'. Whatever is your jam, no judgement. They are not just p...
great post
and unfortunately I agree. And it's exactly the same reason why a 5070 is superior to a 5170 and a 5970 is more interesting than the 5270. I still love the band and the finishing is good ... but it could bet better. Interior angels are among the most diff...
Absolutely
And not even for the looks of the watch. 5711 is quite possibly the ugliest watch out there. I really dislike the the rounded but still somewhat cornered octagon (can't decide what it wants to be) bezel , dial and sapphire crystal. The bezel is also too f...
Great information that reads like a story
You make irrefutable points and in an entertaining way. The hard truth takes a moment to digest. I laughed out loud at "Which is okay because his kids, now in their 20's don't really talk to their dad much, anyway." You paint a picture with your words ver...
Lol, so awesome! That was such a good read with my coffee! Should I be spending more time in the Canadian forum? :P
Couldn't agree more. The prices keep going up and the hand work keeps going down, not just PP. Looking at you AP. This is why independents have been able to prosper and that's fine by me.
Excellent post, thanks!
Would you mind PMing me the link to this Canadian forum? (Assuming that posting it publicly may be against this forum’s rules - although to be honest I have no idea of it is or not.) Best E.
It's not against the rules here to post links . . .
. . . and hasn't been for quite some time. There are still prohibitions regarding self-serving links, but that wouldn't be an issue in this instance. Art
Which Is Also Exactly Why...
... I'd rather have a watch from the folks who used to make the movements for Patek.
Two Words...
... Thierry Stern. No watch manufacturer in the world would hire this nepot fool. Superb post, by the way. - Scott
1000 x thanks for your insightful post.
Written with a lot of passion and impressive knowledge. A confirmation of what I have felt and feared for a long time. And what I have - sometimes - discovered for myself with my much more modest knowledge. One more reason for me to only buy what I really...
Yikes! What an incredible post...
Time to take out the loupe! Some provocative yet very powerful commentary - time to relook at the collection. Cheers Peter
I hope (and very much suspect)...
... that your post was as much fun to write as it is to read!
You are all to kind and thank you!!
I have to admit, I did hesitate before posting it because I didn't know how it would be received here. I am glad it was taken as it was intended: lighthearted with some information wrapped in a narrative. The Canadian forum is There are a few very experi...
.
What do you mean by marching marks? I looked at the picture several times but don't know if I'm looking at the right thing. Could you show it on a picture with a circle on it?
The edges should be polished smooth (by hand).
The edge of the micro rotor shows machining marks. It would be preferable if this were polished, but I think one could accept this. The edge of the bridge shows marks from the tool used to create the anglage (bevel). In a movement of with an expectation o...
Couldn't agree more
Patek is not even close to being the best, especially for the money. 100% agree with you.
Caramba, what a nice read. Thank you.
Thats what i love about this place and love to spend time here.
Excellent post
For years I have tried to get excited by Patek watches. They have always failed to excite me except for the rare handcrafts, some vintage pieces and the 5160R/J. Patek does nothing for me.
BRAH-VO!
Superbly done sir. I agree 1,000% and you've brought me great joy in this cleaning of the lens, into the industry (yes industry) in which we amuse ourselves.
Pauli, thanks for making me see the light !
I wish this post would be bookmarked so we could read and reread it again. Best Gatsby
I think Thierry Stern has made a conscious business decision to chase the 'has-to-have-it' crowd and their money........
I'm sure there were questions asked to the watchmakers as to what was the most labor intensive parts of their work, and those are ones that were trimmed. Patek has done well lately with the advent of the 'gotta-have-it!' crowd fawning over the Nautilus su...
100%
Patek and AP are just like any other multibillion dollar brand. I would do the same thing if I knew my customer was had no clue what they were buying. Personally, my next big watch purchase will be from Roman Gauthier, who offers a lot more value for the ...
A tour de force. Truth cuts like a laser through marketing lard and brand obfuscation.
I began my career in 1992 in marketing. Above my desk was a illustration of a pile of excrement on a plate, surrounded by halogen lamps. The caption read: “It’s a piece of sh!t, but it’s tastefully lit.” Marketing is about seduction, deflection and concea...
IMO, it would be great to add some interior angles, but it's not a deal breaker either.
There are varying degrees of hand finishing and I don't think Patek can be considered entirely machine-finished just due to the lack of interior angles. You do get some other nice finishings like the black-polished screws, perlage, cotes de geneve, etc. I...
I recommend reading Walt Odets’
...brilliant article on The ABC’s of Watch Finish. This was an eye opener for me when I read it more than a decade ago and it helped me appreciate the beauty of hand finished watches and to also understand the reason why these hand finished works of art d...
Glad you pointed towards that article Chintu!
Just read it and although it is a great introduction to watch finishing, I do not agree with some of the statements like "Each one serves a function and, for the vast majority of them, the quality of finish will determine how well the part can perform its...
That’s true...
...but meaningless. The Patek sells for multiples of the JLC or the Rolex. And it sells itself on the basis of being The Best, peerless, etc. It’s something of an apples vs oranges comparison. Best E. (It’s been a while since I’ve looked at the 2121 movem...
The 2121 is intrinsically expensive, regardless of finishing.
Looking at the movement, it seems clear that economy was not among its design goals. It is certainly respectable to design a movement for the purpose of making it easy to manufacture and finish, and I certainly don't approve of complexity for the sake of ...
Can’t help but think
of Thierry Stern on his 100 million dollar yacht planning his next trip on his private jumbo-jet.
Hear, Hear...
... I was thinking exactly the same thing. Gotta pay for that stupid yacht somehow. Philippe must wake every morning cursing himself for entrusting his buffoon-of-a-son with the family jewels. Just sayin'.
Philippe, Henri and Charles Stern
Produced my favorite watches. Thierry is far more interested in the art of watch making as a purely commercial concern. Thierry can make watches faster and cheaper and charge more ( obviously much more) money than his predecessors ever could. I have two p...
A PP Collector Who Feels...
... As you do would concern Thierry's predecessors to the nth degree. As it stands, the yacht captain could care less.
Thank you for the education.
I don't always know what I'm looking at or am educated enough in movements to communicate what my eyes are seeing or might be missing. I'm in my 30's and always happy to learn, so don't worry, there's hope for future generations! Loved the post and reply....
Sorry for asking a stupid question, but..
can someone explain what exactly is an interior angle?
Swiss Watchmaking Of This Caliber...
... Must display a number of finishes. Interior angle is just one of the finishes. Clearly, PP has literally cut corners. Which sucks because PP watches start at 30 grand. In other words, buy a watch from Jaeger LeCoultre, the folks who used to make the m...
It is all down to geometry
There are two main types of angles: acute (<90°) and obtuse (>90°). (There are also straight, right, zero and full angles but that is not the discussion here Acute angles, called here interior are more difficult to finish (files even small cannot easily f...
While the post is great and true to an extent!
Since I’m doing this for a while I can assure you that it’s not just Patek, the same goes for Vacheron, AP, Lange... I had a chance to see the finishing if the VC Corn de vache recently and can assure you that it’s not even close to the finishing of the M...
+1 ...this is modern Patek as well as many others.
Why spend money on more costly (and beautiful) movement layouts and finishing when the ROI on marketing is so much higher? Instead, automate the hell out of production and spend vast dollars selling prospective buyers on the idea that they're getting some...
Quality is quality
U can live on reputation only for so long becore u are being found out.
Apologies for the typos, I was driving😉🤷🏻♂️
Not a macro shot, but one can see the mostly machine finish of the mighty triple split. Yes, lots of curves and bends but no inward angles or nice large anlage as it used to be... ...
True, to an extent
The finishing on the VC Cal 1140/1141/1142 has been inconsistent. Looking at my own admittedly beautiful Historiques Chronograph, I think the movement finishing is off the top level and was possibly improved in models that came afterwards. Prestigious bra...
I recall when PP went to their own seal and sharing a chuckle 🤭 with an AD...
about it. “Our watch is so great, only we are qualified to certify how great it is” At the time the official PP line was that too many other brands were able to get the Geneva seal, they wanted to show they were even better. The only way the Patek seal ma...
Absolutely Beautiful Watch...
... And a tribute to what real movement finishing is all about. It was a strange move when PP decided they were going to certify their own watches, which clearly means nothing.
So even back then, there are no inward angles for this watch with the Geneva seal...
For the sake of argument on this topic, this has been their practice for a long time?
The design doesn't really allow for it I believe, no obvious interior corners along the bridges. The point was to show this movement is impeccable in it's finishing, apparent even through an iPhone pic.
I'm tempted to borrow a real macro set up to take shots as I don't have the equipment. I'm also happy to have a seal that is independent of the brand itself. Certifying the quality of your own product should go without saying.
Based on the above examples pointed by arrows, any curves around the chatons can be an inward angle opportunity...
I’m quite happy with their current 324 movement finishings. ...
I’m ok with the seal, but just pointing out the inward angle or lack of is not something new for PP today....
As show in yours and my 5960P-001 with Geneva Seal, there was no inward angles all the time. Maybe for Grand Complications like 5236P, it should.
That may be true but perhaps a reply to BigFatPauli would be more pertinent. All I did was, justly, mock the concept of the PP seal and proudly post a pic of my Geneva seal piece.
Never claimed it had inward angles. I do know it achieved that seal’s standards, which some of the movements shown by BFP would likely not have if PP was still submitting them for consideration. 👍
Some inward angles in finely finished Pateks
Here are some beautiful examples of what Patek produces in their ultra expensive pieces ( nice internal angles as well) Minute Repeater - Internal angles finished to perfection esp the bat-wing bridge Caliber 29-535 to show the beautiful bevelling ...
Is there anyone who really cares (of anglage)?
Let's be serious, we're just a bunch of watch nerds. When the caseback were sealed and hidden, finishing was excellent and pristine. Quality was for granted. Today they sell us emotions, something valuable for the next generations. Laser cutting machines,...
Yes, some care. While most have no idea such a thing exists.
This is part of the premise of Paul’s post. Patek is now in the business of selling emotions, not top line watchmaking. Some people care very much about such finishing techniques (or lack thereof), but for PP those people are drowned out by the masses tha...
Top-level finishing on the minute repeaters.
I think the minute repeaters are one of PP's real strengths, and they still make those better than anyone else.
I went on to look at many movements on their website...
And my 240/324s and it seems PP movements don’t have much inward angles...Even the 5372P doesn’t have much, maybe one inward angle. This practice has been like that long ago so what’s the surprise today? I’m clueless....new expectations?
I was looking at the bigger bridges....and how about 5370P?
These are totally different levels but I hope you get my point....most PP bridges don’t have inward angles.
...
240 SQU (ref 5180) as far as i know is the only one in the 100k range with interior angles. CH(R) 29-535 in all variations, even 5370 and 5204 not a single one. things change around the 400-450k+ mark
I have been preaching this forever...
...it’s the first thing I look for if the watch costs the same as an E-Class : )
What a read!
It made my day. It’s not just how true your points ring, but how beautifully they ring :- )). It was at once both a commentary and satire on the state of the emperor without clothes (well, at least not his robe).
BTW, I just put a loupe to my Geneva Seal 5110.
The vertical striated machine marks on the inside circumference of the rotor are exactly as in your image of the PP seal watch. They are are fine and very evenly separated, but they are there.
So, I just want to say...
... that this post, and the fact that the moderators kept it up, illustrate the indispensable value of this website in today’s watch world. A glorious antidote to HODINKEE.
Thanks, but there should be no doubt that moderators were going to let this thread stay -- we are not here to defend any brand. And just to see how it feels to be humble, let me add that the #1 brand on Earth wouldn't need my defense anyway! ;-)
In fact, as I mentioned in another thread today, I don't even disagree on the specific point the OP raised on movement finishing, even though of course I find the quality of Patek's movements *very* good. There was no surprising information in this thread...
I appreciate the openness of the moderators to allow posts like these.
It makes for a healthier and more robust community. Patek of course, is the emperor of watchmaking and like all of history, emperors invite satire and high expectations.
Wonderfully summed up.. And here are some nice finishes to admire
I chose from a collection of independent brands that give a high degree of emphasis on finish. Pics - courtesy internet. Just today, I was listening to the Grönefeld brothers speaking on their watches and mentioning that it takes them 4 weeks to hand-fini...
A couple of delectable interior angles from AP
Audemars Piguet - sonnerie . Atleast 6 internal angles visible and superlative bevelling in all the bridges Audermars Piguet ...
Interesting compilations and Thanks for your reply on the nice PP movements above...
Interesting to see the PD Duality has only 1 inward angle and the UJ has multiple. The simplicity is just gorgeous but with the astronomical prices today, I don't know how to think of it....it's all expectations and hype, all relative terms.
Excellent perspective
This is the forum I trust the most to see others thoughts on watches. This has been the case for over 20 years now (posted under a different name back then). A truly independent discussion matters. All of us approach watches from different perspectives.
It's disappointing
Certainly there is a hierarchy of movements at Patek and the $200,000 watches are not in the top tier, when it comes to finishing. The classic comparison is the CHR 27-525 PS in a 5959P vs the CH 29-535 PS in the 5370P. Only one of these movements is fini...
People are getting a little too fixated on the interior angles themselves I think, the general quality is more important to look at along with all of the finishing in total.
Some watches like the Credor Eichi II have no interior angles, but still have amazing anglage. Others like Charles Frodsham and Roger Smith have little to no anglage but make it up for it with finishing in other places. I was taking a look at this macro s...
True.
It is not just the movement finishing and angles that makes a Patek, well... a Patek. Their dials, case designs, overall emotion of the designs, high focus on precision for both new and serviced watches, prioritizing thinness as a hallmark of fine watchma...
Yes, but not on the new ones or just about any of the 3/4 plate watches.
Expert level anglage is unfortunately very expensive. I do think VC and Breguet perhaps offer slightly better quality but their movements are not too different from Patek in overall quality. There are a few cases like Pascal Coyon that do offer very high ...
Same
Likewise, haven't seen much out there though. I have a rough idea in my head but things also seem to depend on what year the watch from a brand was made
Thank you for this very informative read.
I cannot deny that the finishing of the modern pieces is, somewhat inferior when compared to previous models. However I don’t think it’s fair to characterize that the finishing is under par, or that the money paid is excessive relative to the finishing. I...
Interesting viewpoints, but
May I present a few counter points as well. On technical innovation front, it would be pertinent to point out that a simple feature of “stop seconds” was considered unnecessary for over a century and half by Patek until caliber 31-260 ( derived from 240) ...
I completely understand your point of view regarding hand finishing
And I would also welcome a higher standard of hand finishing for my money in all circumstances especially when one considers Pateks price point. But to ignore or discount important innovations and developments, late or not, is to inaccurately evalutate to...
I can appreciate a well finished movement
I’m not disputing the charm and beauty of a lemania finished by Patek. But can we not also appreciate the modern package? I believe both have a place in any collection. H.
So what is Patek, AP and Vacheron thinking?
So in this thread it's pretty clear patek absolutely skipped some work on the dial, Vacheron has done absolutely nothing to revamp their ageing lineup and calibres, and AP's new 1159 is now just a pre-requisite of getting a RO. Just what in the world are ...
Good thread
Yet, humbly said, old news. I was a VERY avid PP collector decades ago... until they moved service at Rock in NYC... and the seal fiasco... and the unqualified kid being their new front guy. Patek went downhill in various directions and sold all but one c...
I don't disagree but...
I don't disagree and im certainly not trying to "defend" PP per se but thought I would also add that another "hyped" brand, is FPJ and at similar price points, around 100-200K mark FPJ's movement also do not have interior angles either. Now, many defend F...
Patek also solders the lugs
To the best of my knowledge all Patek watches have the lugs soldered to the case. Will be happy to stand corrected if there are examples made available in the forum by experts.
This whole problem would be solved if PP scrapped their seal and lowered their prices.
And maybe retired Thierry.
