A question for the experts!! :-)

Oct 11, 2018,04:43 AM

A remontoire is a rare feature in a watch and is aimed at providing a more constant delivery of energy to the escapement, in theory offering greater precision.

I have two questions:

1.  Does it in reality contribute to the watch's accuracy?
1.  Does a one second remontoire (as in the Lang & Heyne Konrad) make it more accurate than the Gronefeld's 8 second remontoire?

The Caliber V movement of the Konrad. Breathtakingly beautiful!!

Arguably the most beautiful movement currently available - the 1941 Remontoire by Gronefeld

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Sorry, a better photo of the Konrad

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-04:45

This movement is just SO beautiful 😍

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:18
I prefer it over the Grönefeld, which is not bad...

It took me 4 years

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-12:22
before I took the plunge and acquired the Friedrich III. I told Marco today that it may take as long before I take the plunge on a Konrad. He was most understanding and said to take my time no matter how long it might take! I love Marco's movements as the... 

I met Marco one time at Basel World...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:38
(2011) and he took the time to show me their entire collection at the time. I was very, very impressed. And what a friendly person he is. Very down to earth. Do you have any idea how many watches they produce each year? Thanks, Sham, nice takling to You 😀... 

Yes Marco is a lovely chap

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-12:42
as are the majority of watchmakers! When I first met Marco 4 years ago, he was producing only 30 watches a year. With the launch of other watches like the Georg and the Anton, he produced 52 watches last year and he has a target of 200 per year maximum wh... 

@ 50 is a really nice low number - one each week

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:55
That would ensure a strong focus on quality. But I know life is not easy for some of these guys. They need to ramp up to pay the machinery and expenses - while maintaining quality and exclusivety as you say. I guess they each need to find their sweet spot... 


 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-13:00
Thank goodness the manufacturing costs in Dresden are a lot lower than in Switzerland and I understand that Marco operates from relatively humble premises. I am tempted to get a Gronefeld Remontoire before the Konrad only because the former is limited. Sa... 

I guess that is all part of the fun

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-20:10
of this passion of ours - having to decide where to allocate our hard earned funds! As much as it would be nice to have unlimited funds, I think we would not be able to appreciate our purchases as much as we do as when we have limited funds!! Frustrating ... 

This is spot on, Sham

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-21:38
the feeling there is something at stake, adds something important to the decision making process and the purchase that makes it much more exciting in the end!

Ha! Ha! I am glad that I am not in a minority here :-)

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-23:14
I don't think the feeling of owning a watch would be the same if we could buy everything we liked. Based on the posts on this forum, there are a few among us who are very blessed but I am pleased and privileged to be able to own and enjoy a few of these w... 

IMHO 1. No, 2. No.

 By: Walter2 : October 11th, 2018-05:34
A perfect Rolex movement runs with 1 sec. a day, I dont think that one of this two watches can do it better. The same with a tourbillon. But that is not the right question, remontoir and tourbillon is nice to see and very special. Ahh, i am not an expert!... 

Thank you Walter for your prompt reply

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-05:50
There are many accurate movements these days, the Rolex is one at + 2 -2 seconds, a Patek would be +2 -3 and a Lange at +3 -2 seconds per day. A Seiko Spring drive will boast a half second tolerance a day. I do know that Patek tourbillons manage a +1 -2 s... 

When I bought the Grönefeld Remontoire, they've told me the Story behind it.

 By: nafetS : October 11th, 2018-05:50
I hope I remember it correctly. In short: The Remontoire 1941 is a Tribute to the remontoire in the clock Tower of the local church, that their father used to take Care of. While the remontoire does have an effect in the clock Tower because of the size/Ge... 

Thank you for the valuable feedback!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-05:55
Yes I heard that the 1941 Remontoire was a tribute to the town's clock which Gronefeld Senior had been responsible in maintaining. I was hoping of course that the gorgeous movement would aid accuracy but I guess not. So there is no difference between the ... 

The remontoire in the clock Tower does have an even longer cycle time.

 By: nafetS : October 11th, 2018-06:04
Don't remember how Long. They've shortened the time for the wristwatch because they thought the original cycle time wasn't appropriate for a wrist watch.

Your feedback is accurate!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-09:36
I actually just emailed Bart Gronefeld who replied stating that this complication on the 1941 was mainly to showcase the technical knowhow and horological art. However, the mechanism does make the amplitude more constant and therefore it does make it some... 

Just had a look at the lang & heyne website.

 By: nafetS : October 11th, 2018-06:26
There is a Major difference in how or why they've implemented the remontoire. Grönefeld: As in the clocktower, the remontoire drives the Minute hand. You can see, that the Minute hand only moves every eight seconds, when the visible remontoire wheel moves... 

And to be impartial

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-09:42
I decided to email Marco Lang too and here is his reply:- The Konrad is more accurate as the remontoir ensures a constant energy of the balance whilst without it, right after the watch is wound, the watch energy is higher supplied to the movement. Because... 

Not an expert but

 By: donizetti : October 11th, 2018-06:42
The accuracy of my Journe Tourbillion Remontiore is phenomal (about 2 sec/week). Largely, in my understanding, by the remontoire compensating for the power sapped off by the tourbillon assembly successfully. Best Andreas

Thank you very much Andreas!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-09:44
Your FP Journe is keeping remarkable time but I know accuracy is one of FP's priorities when making a watch. His remontoire is obviously the pinnacle of accuracy.

One of my favorite watches...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-11:45
Your collection is immaculate, Andreas!

Wow!! [nt]

 By: galt : October 12th, 2018-02:27

Some input from Derek Pratt

 By: cazalea : October 11th, 2018-07:42
I had a long talk with him one afternoon on this subject. He indicated that the remontoire was most useful when the source of power was inconsistent or was located physically removed from the rest of the timepiece’s works, such as a tower clock might be. ... 

Well summarized. [nt]

 By: DruidPadj : October 11th, 2018-09:00

Hey Mike Number 2! :-)

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-09:56
I digress a little but have you noticed your Richard Lange Pour Le Merite with the fusee chain mechanism, keeping better time than your other watches?!

The rate is constant over several days.

 By: DruidPadj : October 11th, 2018-11:41
At least over three full days. I haven't timed it beyond that.

Thanks druid Mike!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-11:51
So may I ask how accurate are the watches daily?

They gain 7 seconds a day.

 By: DruidPadj : October 11th, 2018-17:02
I've discussed this with a Lange watchmaker, who told me they would have to go back to Germany for adjustment. I've decided to wait until they need servicing. It's a minor annoyance.

Thanks Mike for sharing this.

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-20:17
A fellow purist, Richard N, has a Lange 1815 in 38.5mm. He was quite upset that his watch is fast by 5 seconds daily and sent it back to Lange who said that it is within the accepted tolerance. He remains unhappy as his Grand Seiko keeps much better time!... 

Thank you Mike!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-09:54
Your input of what Derek said is in line with what Bart Gronefeld just confirmed to me that the complication is more of a showcase of technical knowhow and horological art. However, the mechanism does make the amplitude more constant and therefore it does... 

I have no idea if the Remontoir helps, but...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-10:21
Definition of accuracy can be understood in several ways. To my understanding, it strictly means, how much a watch fluctuates over an extended period of measurements. If the watch gains, it should gain the same between each measurement with the interval. ... 

Thank you Christian for your reply

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-10:34
and your practical interpretation of accuracy. A watch with a remontoire is priced a lot higher than one without one due to the complex nature of the remontoire. As beautiful as the movement looks, it would be an added advantage if the watch keeps better ... 

I totally understand your desire...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-11:38
I am also in the category who is interested in chronometry, and have been spending a lot of time trying to find out for my self as well.. I also understand that if you pay (a lot) for these extra things like a remontoir, a Tourbillion or chain-et-fusee, r... 

Thank you very much Christian!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-11:50
Yes I have read about the Chronometre Optimum which seems like FP Journe's ultimate chronometric watch. Perhaps he would have given this to his friend, George, were he still to be alive! I am glad you share a similar craving like I do for accuracy but som... 

I agree. It is super complicated to try to follow this quest...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:06
And the marketing departments are willing to tell us anything.....And one thing is the Chronometer performance an other is aesthetics. - They both need to come together.

I agree with you my friend!

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-12:18
Independents have been able to raise the bar when it comes to aesthetics and technical know how. They often sell us the romantic notion of a beautifully finished movement, a bespoke dial and the celebration of a historical landmark or invention in watch m... 

LOL, the two of us think alike 😊

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:28
trying to buy the ultimate is both a strong desire and a fault....we can only live with our mistakes 😉😂

Let's hope we do not make too many....

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-12:33
mistakes!! I am waiting for my RW Smith Series 2 which should arrive in 26 months. I must confess as I have not tried one on, I am not even sure if it is the right watch for me. I pray it is because mistakes of such magnitude are best avoided!!

That was...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-12:46
My winning candidate yesterday, trying to figure out what would be my ultimate, big piece. But can I put that much money in to one watch and not worry about it? Im not there yet.... I’m thinking if you find out it is not for you, that you should be able t... 

Rose gold in 38mm

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-12:52
yes, it did cross my mind that this would be a win win situation whether I liked the watch or not. The thought of the Series 2 being the equivalent of the combined cost of the Gronefeld Remontoire, Konrad and Chronometre Optimum puts this crazy acquisitio... 

Aaah, its going to be absolutely stunning ...

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-13:07
And a perfect, elegant size. Good thing you went for a colored gold. It fits this watch sooo well. My fave is yellow but that’s more a question of my skin tone also! Yes. it’s totally crazy one could get the three amazing watches we just discussed for the... 

yes skin tone to me is vital

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-20:06
when deciding the colour of metal to go for in a watch. Here is an example of what my Series 2 will look like but Roger is revising the case design to make it look slimmer even though it will measure 13.5mm thick which personally I feel is too thick for a...  

It is just stunning

 By: ChristianDK : October 11th, 2018-21:07
That dial and those hands are just too good!! it is my feeling that the traditional path is the way to take with this watch. Its very interesting what you say about the case design, because you are absolutely right about the thickness. I would also normal... 

According to Roger

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-23:08
he is in the process of designing the new case and will send me some photos when he has some. I was hoping that he would revise the case and reduce its height by one or two millimetres but alas he plans to make it wear slimmer but keep the same height. I ... 

I feel as though we need to define remontoire.

 By: rdenney : October 11th, 2018-17:37
It is a small spring used to drive only the balance, and then only for a short period. The large mainspring drives the hands and rewinds the remontoire spring. The mainspring has to be big (powerful) enough to drive the whole going train for the full rese... 

Rick, Rick, Rick

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-20:19
Thank you very much for your elaborate and informative technical explanation. You obviously know a lot more than I do. I shall read your explanation for the third time to fully digest what you have said.

You guys are raising the bar, even for PuristS

 By: cazalea : October 11th, 2018-22:04
Your earlier discussion reminded me of my friend J, who stunned me by saying he bought a Watch by trading in 6 others and his nearly-new 911! It was a Blancpain, BTW. On the subject of power evenly applied to the movement, the Grand Seiko solution was “si... 

Thanks Mike for the compliment and for the in depth insight into Grand Seiko.

 By: sham1 : October 11th, 2018-23:27
They are a brand that thrives on accuracy and are grossly under rated. My only qualm with some of their watches is that they are a lot thicker than my comfort zone! Yes indeed, there seems to be so many ways to achieve improved accuracy these days. Grand ...