BjoernM21
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Was the post really asking to justify what is owned and why?
For me any reason to acquire a "thing" is valid. It can be its technical merit, it can be investment, it can even be making a fast buck by reselling it, or whatever. But was Jocke's question not also focused on what the buyers of some watch models are prepared to endure to get them? Personally, I would also like to learn what drives likely successful business people to accept every humiliation by arrogant sales persons to get a mass produced industrial product sold to them? And what is the joy of getting one desireable watch when you have first to spend a lot of money with the AD on things you don't really want? Why not rather buy the one watch wanted at a premium on the grey market, instead of complaining (also on this forum) about "unfairness" (with "fairness" hardly to be a dominant criteria in business life anyway nowadays)?
Why are many so single-minded in their thinking?
Why are many so single-minded in their thinking? I find it hard to understand this completely sensible submission, as part of what comes to Patek or Rolex. To queue 10th century, pay far above list prices and to pray on their bare knees to get their produ...
That’s a lot of questions for a Friday....
but In my opinion to have a great watch collection you need variety. The only problem is that the two brands in question make some great models and with the added bonus that if you wanted or needed to sell you would probably get your money back. Keep them...
I am in agreement.
I cannot fathom that a person has to wait 5 years to buy a 5711; or pay a 50% premium with a grey marketeer. Ditto the Daytona-a great watch at 12K, but unavailable unless you are willing to pay over msrp. There are so many equally well-made and attractiv...
Hey PADJ.....
I tend to agree with you. I cannot fathom it either....for the 5711. BUT, and its a BIG BUT, isn't that decision purely the domain of the person who decides whether or not the watch represents value to them at that price? I wish penthouse appartments in M...
I understand your point.
Of course it is up to the person to pay whatever he/she feels like paying to gain entry into an exclusive club-here ownership of certain models of watches. It doesn't have to be that way. We all could show some restraint and that would bring the manufactu...
You're nearing
WISDOM ;-) If there anything sane about collecting watches, it is the insanity around collecting watches.... HAGWE ! Best, mahesh.,
Well, it feels extra special to get a limited access watch
I see this as a sport, a challenge to get a limited watch, IF I LIKE the watch. I certainly do not like all limited models, neither would pay premiums. This new GMT reminds me of the Star Wars marketing: no one has seen it but all are already crazy about ...
Personal taste....
My AD told me that if i wanted the GMT, he would get one relatively soon. I saw it at Basel and just didn't like it that much. Yes.....very much like the new Star Wars.....
Easy answer: to show off (status, etc) and /or speculate
Trying to extend my thoughts, I start from the beginning. I've started learning (not so much, actually 😅😅😅😅) 15 years ago, when I was more ignorant. Rolex was and still is the luxury entry level brand for anyone is going to throw some money. Because it ke...
I am with you, my friend...
I am perplexed, too, and I agree that "the more money, the more the tricky behavior". Don't worry, it's like fashion, the other brand you mention may slowly go down - one man shop is not forever. But, hey, what do we know? I have never been wealthy, and t...
To show off, status and to speculate?
Do you not think that is a little bit of a generalisation and actually somewhat insulting to people who collect just Rolex/Patek and people who are happy to pay over list price?Surely it is their judgment that matters in what they buy? Why do any of us ha...
Absofuckinlutely
Buying wisely (second hand, NOS, discount,etc) is different than buying expecting a price increase. As i've already said, isn't it more disrespectful for those who buy watches just for passion, without any valuation of future resale? I have never offended...
My position is quite clear..
.... it isn’t up to you to act as judge on others. You do not have the right to tell others they are wrong just because you happen not to agree with the rationale behind their decisions. Also, please refrain from swearing on the forum. Thank you.
May i have my personal, private, unique point of view?
Or shall i ask permission? I feel deeply offended by these direct attack, i'd expect more super partes attitude from a Mod, not a direct critics to myself. Clearly you are biased by your way of collecting which is, by far, the opposite of mine.
Forum etiquette
You are of course entitled to your opinion. However, when that opinion goes beyond forum etiquette then a Moderator is entitled to step in and moderate. Swearing on forum crosses the line. So too is generalising about “types” of collectors. It’s not the s...
If I want to speculate on the future price of a watch, it is entirely my prerogative.
How is that any different than investing into stocks? Or buying Birkin bags? Are the people who do such investing any less of a customer or do they have less rights? I completely agree with Baron here, each person has his/her reasons for acquiring a watch...
Is it a watch forum or an investment forum?
I think you guys feel so susceptible because where i see simply an object, an item, a watch, you see money, investment, future. I'll be honest, i don't care much because these are just TOYS. Like a Birkin, a Lambo, etc...
Seriously? A personal attack?
Wow, this place has lowered its standards by miles. Now, for those who have trouble understanding: I was pointing out that different people have different motivations. Nothing more, nothing less. Basically, you’re saying that, for example, if a worker of ...
Oh, and FYI, a Birkin bag is a hell of an investment.
Check prices over last 5-10 years.
I understood that Zagreb did simply point out that whatever the motivation for a buyer, he is equally a customer like a collector.
I did not read his post as a description of his personal motivation, nor did he suggest that what he described is a prevalent one. Best, Magnus
I have pretty much abandoned vintage Rolex
due to the insane "bubble" prices even common pieces like 5513s and 1675s are going for. I'm glad I at least have some vintage models from when they were more "reasonably" priced. And my friend, you know vintage Rolex is where I started my collecting. As ...
Good topic
Hard to generalize here, especially without offending some, but I'll toss out some ideas: Some consumers who nearly exclusively focus on Rolex, Patek, some AP, and some other very hot models (...admittedly, there's a lot of overlap in the following list):...
I agree with so much of this on this topic.
It’s a very interesting topic! The herd mentality, peacocking, exclusivity, status symbol is so much of it, in my opinion. If they go get another less well-known brand, they lose these attributes immediately to other people that don’t know watches very we...
I think the person's actual financial status (versus perceived financial status) is one of the major players here
For example, if a person may need to sell his/her watches due to a financial crisis in their lives, they're likely to think more about the secondary market value of the watch. The more precarious their financial situation is, the more likely that person w...
Absolutely agree
Lot's of peer pressure here. Actually, lot's of cults over at Patek forum. Nautilus crew versus the world time cosmopolitans. Phew! Jim
Can't say for sure but a few theories?
Most people Rolex is not "cheap" for most people. Having a "normal" job, most people need to save up to buy a Rolex. Combined with Rolex's marketing and armed with the knowledge that it's "easy" to get most of your money back on a Rolex purchase, it's a s...
I agree with you Jocke
All fun fun has been taken out of vintage Rolex collecting because the prices have gotten so out of hand. I see ratty 5513s selling for close to $20k within minutes (or at most hours) after they are advertised for sale. Couple these high prices with risk ...
Nothing new about the fundamental of this behaviour
As far as the history of Man goes, there have always been individuals who have wanted to be perceived differently, that feeling of grandeur perhaps. One way to achieve that is to acquire an object that is perceived to be of value (either rare or precious)...
I like these types of topics where we question ourselves...
I think there is definitely a bit of herd mentality. The visibility and exposure of Rolex and Patek are very high and I think it reinforces their reputation and status. It also does not hurt that Rolex and Patek vintage watches have achieved the highest $...
sheep mentality
It's like kids back in grade school. Everyone wants to "fit in" and be popular. As we grow up, the popular materialistic stuff gets more and more expensive. In adult scenario, the stuff becomes Rolex and Patek. The "sheep" find anything else besides these...
It was in 2013 when i quit collecting Rolexes and
i thought time to focus on Patek rather ,PP I ve always considered as THE watchbrand worth to follow but i ve needed the final push mindwise to justify the prices they charge(their products and marketing I ve respected always).Anyhow a good friend of mine...
George.....
I think your sentiments are spot on. You have evaluated what you want and made a decision. It is your decision and nobody else's.
It's about image and the desire of recognition for most people.
Sure, other manufacturers have some fabulous pieces as well, but people are anxious about not being "in" and the lack of recognition, something we truly desire and you can't deny! For myself I think that Rolex and Patek have something more than good marke...
+1000 about comparisons to Fifthy Fathoms, Overseas, & Omega
Many different sporty watches out there but I cannot get past big thick watches. I’ll look harder for a well-proportioned watch and it usually comes back to Rolex & Patek. I have a monster watch in the JLC Extreme Lab and that one is enough for me.
You can't compare apples to oranges.
This piece of steel is small and thin. Indeed. I'm still smiling when i read PP and Rolex (only) buyers trying to justify their choices because t hey don't want to lose their money . Are all the other people/collectors dumb when they buy out-of-the-box? ...
I don't get the message completely.
Could you try to explain a little closer, please?
You said 50 fathoms is too big
It's a dive watch (although nobody would use it for diving purpose), so the size matters. Isn't the deep sea simply huge? Even the 41 mm DJ is bulky, but I'm not criticizing their choices. Simply, I don't like it and I carry on. There are hundreds of nice...
For me size matters, even if some specific watch categories should be big.
I would not buy watches with more than 42mm in diameter and 13mm in height – with those two factors only, the number of watches from brands with reasonable image (say like Oris) decreases hugely. There are plenty of nice watches, true; but they aren't man...
Hear hear! Completely agree.
1. I have owned many Pateks, but alas, I have none today and am no longer following those "number only" models, which is which. 2. Rolex - I own two modern, still in production one. Practical, not so shabby on the wrist, "showy" enough (kidding!). But NO ...
That's the point, a hobby VS investment/speculation
Buying and selling is part (likely the main one) of our passion, but today most of purchasers (definitely neither collectors nor fans) are simply looking for quick and easy money. PP and Rolex has re-started 6 months price increases, so no surprise of tho...
For me my hobby is an investment and investing is a hobby too,
i won t blame my life .I made some dough on watchcollecting/trade in the past and i really really enjoying to learn the technical analysis(EWs &all related to be specific ) to be more successful during my investment trades ,i really don t feel any problem...
Again...i totally agree
And by what rule should someone else tell you what you should or should not be doing? If one buys watches to sell immediately, then i see that person as a watch dealer. 99% of people on this forum are not watch dealers. And, to be blunt, how other collect...
The key part of your post here Ken is.....
"Yup, I buy what I like." That is a courtesy that should be extended to anyone who buys a watch for themself. This is especially true for a watch forum like this that is supposed to be embracing all tastes. To buy whatever they like.....is their business ...
Lots of good responses so far!
A lot of Rolex and Patek models remain smartly sized, where other brands just went off the rails chasing fashion. Combine great sales numbers, collectable vintage pieces and waiting lists and you have two brands that are perceived as winners. Most people ...
It s funny you say,the main reason
I m not even consider indys that i m afraid of the potential financial loss if the master/owner pass away(and no parts or service option remains) , i m okay to buy a PP but i m a chicken to acquire a Bexei. Obviously exceptions exist a Dufour must be a sa...
I dont buy a watch and think about the loss of value . I will buy a watch because it gives me goosebumbs or a huge smille on my face .
Most of the time ill get that with a indie brand . And i am not afraid about the service of the watch after the brand or watchmaker is Disappeared . Imo there are plenty of skilled watchmakers (young and old ) who are able to work on the watch in the futu...
😁 thats the power of this forum , we can chat and discuss about everything and still
have Mutual respect 🙏🏻🤗 HAGW 🍻
People always want what they can't have.
Personally.... I refuse to even pay close to MSRP and always get a significant discount from my Patek AD. The reality of our world is that the vast majority of the wealth is being consolidated among a very small % of the population. It's not hard to imagi...
Flipping through forums 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014...
You will notice many watch brands in the collection. Now all are not concerned about the clock itself, and their liquidity in resale. Many collections have become similar to each other, as a blueprint. Personally, I also went this way and began to buy mor...
Great topic for discussion...though this is our first world problems 🤣
Disclaimer: I’m very practical and direct, straight talker. Having collecting since 1990, when I first bought my dress quartz watches and moving to mechanical, admiring JLC, Blancpain, Breguet, VC, PP and recent years ALS, I came to learn that I cannot ac...
ALS is great but I say respectfully their case design is
a bit “beefy”.Perfectly executed and love to have and enjoy the fine details under a loupe but have it on the wrist is an other story , i m not young but need to age at least an other 20yrs to feel that my personality and ALS is matching.
Great thread
Both Rolex and Patek are great houses with phenomenal reputations, which helps in preserving the value of the pieces in the second hand market. For many, this value is a large part of what they are buing into. For others the reputation alone is the reason...
Quite simply, a lot of people that buy watches just don't have the collector's mindsets
They aren't students of horology. Watches are only accessories that provide them security in social standing. They'd be wearing a tiara if the media can convince them that it's the hottest thing.
The watches are fine
But the policy is speculative. It may work for some and not for others. In any case, as long as there is people willing to pay more for getting it first, the bubble will grow. If people said “why to pay more? Keep your watches”, prices would go down. My 2...
Different thought on single minded
Hi I think all of us here are single minded in some way - otherwise we wouldn't be here. And yes I kind of get the question about aquanauts, nautiluses & submariners - & if I'm honest wouldn't mind either of the first two. They are iconic watches after al...
I am sorry to digress, but...
...I wonder how many of those that pay over retail for their pieces would admit to doing so to others? It would be my guess that when someone is the buyer of whatever cool watch du jour at OVER retail, they are telling others (who know what the watch is a...
I agree with you
Personally I don’t care anymore about Rolex or their new models. Everything has crazy waiting lists and I’m personally not paying over MSRP for a day a Daytona. I had the 116520 and that was enough for me to understand it’s a bare bones with no date and a...
Well in my humble opinion
Always Lange over Patek for the different messages they sent. Never ever a rolex. I cant even start to understand how a brand producing more than 1 MILLION watch a year would ever appeal to me. Sorry guys. I'll stick with Lange and Glashutte Original for ...
I elaborate with another question: what does Rolex ( especially vintage ) have to do with love and appreciation of horologerie?
I think they are 2 different things, I collect watches, not Rolexes. Mo
It has plenty, Mo
Rolex were responsible for so many patents in the 20th century that pushed horology forward. To appreciate where horology is today, surely one can appreciate the drivers of what put it where it is today. To appreciate vintage Rolex is to appreciate key pa...
Slight misunderstanding , maybe I worded it wrong..
What drives today’s craze about vintage Rolexes ? Love for horologerie? I doubt it.. If it is because of those patents that Rolex invented well why just Rolex move collectors this much? Why not vacheron , girrard prrregaux, Minerva, and dozens other? The ...
OK...that is a different point
On the other hand, one could make the same hypothetical argument about Apple shares. To many, the price of the share is now quite absurd and unrelated to reality. On the other hand, who am I to tell another buyer of the share that their thinking is "wrong...
I am not denigrating anyone Baron...what people do with their money is not my business..
As we are debating on a watch forum( a purists dedicated one as that),I was just stating that the factor that moves people to go mental about a very simple watch cannot be the appreciation of haute/bas horologerie per se. The discrepancy between the intri...
Hey Mo....
...i wasn't saying that you were denigrating....just saying that one shouldn't. Relative "value" applies itself across vurtually everything. Watches, art, shares, bonds, houses...everything. All I am saying is that what we, as individuals, consider to be ...
I think the key word is sports models
the other vintage models not performs even close to them and be honest in that segment no other manufacturer can beat Rolex. Obviously there are vintage complications by Rolex sold for top dollars but those are just the few exceptions.
Mo, there are two things here: Those who swear by Rolex and only Rolex will miss a lot in the watch universe. On that side I agree with you. Now, where I disagree...
Is that Rolex did a lot for Horology. In the quartz era, they resisted in the mechanical watch camp. They also made ( in the same time with Blancpain ) the first modern diving watch ( 1953 / 54 ) and even before ( 1935 ), as Panerai bought their watches f...
I agree on those points Nico,but i suppose a lot of companies can claim other successes..
perhaps different,BUT,this does not justify Rolexes prices. My point is that ,what moves people to inflate rolexes prices is NOT horologerie love, but speculation,collectability ,etc etc ...nothing to do with love for watches in the Purist sense. Your poi...
a few centuries ago....
.....people valued a certain type of tulip bulb more than a house. Prices fly all over. Value is always subjective. Is a 6200 worth more than a house? To some, yes.
I think Rolex watches are great
I just don’t think paying over MSRP for a model you know they can pile stock if they wanted is cool! Also haveing bought from an AD (new air king) I can tell you thst they have their noses held really high. They think because Rolex that they can create fa...
Hi Jocke...a very interesting topic
What drives one person to buy a watch? That is a fascinating question and within that question is covered the specific issue that you raise. Namely, when a brand like Rolex or Patek produce a watch where the demand is significantly greater than the supply...
Was the post really asking to justify what is owned and why?
For me any reason to acquire a "thing" is valid. It can be its technical merit, it can be investment, it can even be making a fast buck by reselling it, or whatever. But was Jocke's question not also focused on what the buyers of some watch models are pre...
You ask several questions.....
......what would drive someone to endure a range of negatives to gain a specific positive? Again, I could answer that for myself but not for someone else. I would be preparedto wait for a year or so for a new watch to be delivered. yes. Would i pay a big ...
I had similar thoughts. There's a real masochistic element to this behavior...
... of doing business with companies or dealers who are not customer-friendly when other choices exists. I don't feel good giving my money to a person or company that isn't good to me when other reasonable substitute options exist.
There are several ways to parse this. I also consider the "steel vs. precious metal" distinction in this line of thought.
For me, the primary distinction is about "marketing vs. inherent attraction." I am usually turned off -- way off -- by marketing efforts. Marketing and advertising tend to have the opposite effect on me than they're supposed to have, because my first reac...
Might be not the right reason for the popularity of SS but for eg. Islam (and some other religions /cultures) not allow to wear PM afaik ,
there s a distinction between coloured PM and white PM but I m far from a pro in these details.
There is no right or wrong....
if people feel they need a 5711 now and want to pay the premium, let them do it. I think I would not generalise it that much to Rolex and Patek. If people want a watch to present something, then that's their business. For me, I would not go there. Re vint...
What makes both brands so attractive I think is their iconic branding (which I consider a tremendous achievement over time)
which makes the acquisition of either brand a non-brainer: safe, you get back 'value', and peace of mind. Both brands have achieved that with a considerable long-term view, with carefully considered decisions on every single aspect of their business (tech...
Nice reasoning Magnus
ADs who stick huge premiums on top of list deserve to be removed by the manufacturers. However, what about the collector who just doesn’t mind paying through the nose in the secondary market to get the prized Watch that he wants...., is that collector to ...
I don’t feel like this was Jocke’s question.
I didn’t interpret his question as asking should we judge these people who pay over market on the grey market. I interpreted the question as why does it happen. Of course a person is entitled to spend his resources in whatever way pleases him/her. I don’t...
Correct
Jocke asked why it happened. Others then gave opinions about the “type” of collectors that do it. My argument is simply that we shouldn’t judge why others do it.
To me, there are different types of people that buy watches based on their motivations for doing so.
For example: - superior quality -just rings my bells -size -status -exclusivity -art/craftsmanship -heritage etc. To me, identifying those motivations/categories is not the same as judging them. It becomes judgement when someone says something like people...
THANK YOU ALL
Wow, I'm really impressed with all the answers. I never thought this would be such a good debate where, from the different angles of thought, I get a better understanding of how people think and act. I would also like to point out that I was not looking f...
Jocke, I will walk into a dark alley with you any day.
Especially if you have more vikings with you, hehehehe
We already have done that
and it was in one of the most dangerous city in the world wearing a expensive watch. Believe it or not, we survive. LOLOLOL
Uhm. I will need to check.
Do bubbles make a difference? Sorry. I am probably getting too technical.
I was curious......
.....is the Yang in your name a Yin/Yang type of thing or is it your actual name?
Its part of my name. You can also call me Yang
Putting teacher in front is just for fun just like people called me as chinese teacher for fun.
Hahaha. You also knew it. Because i really cant sleep
Thats why i came in this thread to comment! Thanks J!
I think there's another layer to consider in as far as "single-minded” thinking is concerned..
I think Joe (Baron) put it in the proper context before the discussions started.. that it's very personal. And then I propose another layer once we peel that one off.. individual context. Where a person is relative to this hobby. Maybe one settles at sing...
