+ 100K for a 5711/1A .... Around 100K for a Journe CB .... over 50K for the Journe Elegante

May 30, 2021,14:39 PM
 

I know not everyone likes to talk about prices on this website so let's respect this a bit. On the other hand we're not stupid and we can't deny these trends. 

If you would have asked anyone in 2010 if a 5711 steel would be more expensive than a gold perpetual calendar chronograph from the same brand (5270)... nobody would have answered 'YES'

But we have to accept that somehow a group of (new ??) collectors came to the market and they do have a different point of view. For them it's not about complications or finishing. They want some iconic designs and a shape / form they like. ( which is about the only reason I can think of to justify the 50K for a quartz Journe Elegante).

And believe me, not all of them are speculators or people that know nothing about watches. I know 2 guys that did pay way over retail for a 5711 and Elegante. The one that bought the 5711 had some really nice other watches but could never get a 5711 from an AD. He wanted it badly and did pay the street price. The one that bought the Elegante is a guy with less knowledge about watches but loves design furniture. 

So maybe ... are we getting old ? smile Seems we still want grande complications if we talk about 6 figures or if it's not a grande complication, at least if must be out the hands of Voutilainen, Dufour, Smith, ...


I tried to compare it with art.


This is a Rubens made around 1600






Do I like it ?
Not at all, I appreciate the craftsmanship and do realize it's a master piece ... But it can not make me happy.




This is a rather recent Rothko



Do I like that one ?
Well I have to admit I would prefer this on my wall than the Rubens.
But on the other hand I have the impression I can make something similar in a couple of hours ... even my 12 year old nephew could give it a try smile


Now the fact is that both were sold for an insane 75.000.000.

And somehow I think the Rubens is a grande complication with super finishing and the Rothko is an entry 3 hands simple watch.


So without trying to discuss prices I am trying to explain that we might be wrong saying :
" you paid that much for watch XX, you know you could have bought watch 'YY' for the same amount and 'YY' is much more complicated and much better finished " 


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That is a nice comparison …

 
 By: Clueless_Collector : May 30th, 2021-14:46
Indeed when it comes to Art, it all depends on buyer and of course, their pockets. The $120K duct-taped banana in Miami Basel is how crazy we’re in today….just too much liquidity.

Lol, so true

 
 By: DouglasM : June 3rd, 2021-18:13

very good post

 
 By: Cookies : May 30th, 2021-15:06
It provokes the deep thoughts about the state of watch collecting today. On my usual rounds shopping in the city, I see "consolidators" in boutiques, buying up huge portions of inventory. They are not even buying it for themselves, but rather, to re-sell ... 

Well said,your sentiments resonate with me.

 
 By: halkcb : May 31st, 2021-01:59
Buy what really appeals to you,,regardless of the social hype

^ This post is right on the money...

 
 By: India Whiskey Charlie : May 31st, 2021-02:04
Methinks none of this would have happened if watch manufacturers didn’t limit the flow of supply like Rolex started with the Daytona a few decades ago. All of a sudden, people started wanting the unobtainable and that led to “I gotta have what others are ... 

I look at the real cost of something — whether it be art or a watch— to be the depreciation that it will suffer and not the purchase price.

 
 By: descartes1 : May 30th, 2021-15:25
Both of those paintings will have no real cost to the purchasers because they will only go up in value. Could the same be said for the 5711 and, say, a 5270? I think it’s becoming more likely the values of both will be pretty firm in the future. The 5711 ... 

Well said

 
 By: Spartacus : May 30th, 2021-18:08
Regardless of the reason for the purchase, these watches will not likely depreciate any time soon. My only regret is that I didn't buy a stunning FPJ Tourbillon in 2019 when one landed in my lap. I'm not willing to pay the current asking price now.

Great topic my friend, I can’t believe people are willing to pay 3x retail for a watch thats not that unique like a 5711

 
 By: Watchonthewrists : May 30th, 2021-15:27
If the watch in question is a piece unique or very low quantity i can see why someone is willing to pay a bit more if he really wants it or thinks its something he Needs to have it . I guess i am old fashion too

well said!

 
 By: Cookies : May 30th, 2021-15:44
to live life to the fullest. I'd rather travel the world, than spend on a 5711 today. Maybe with that amount of funds for a 5711, one would find more joy roaming all the ADs in Rome or London, soaking up 5-6 good pieces over a weeks holiday, and with the ... 

An interesting post and a good analogy.

 
 By: emcquillan : May 30th, 2021-15:46
There are definitely new collectors creating new trends. I took a quick look at Rolex professional LNIB resale prices and can’t believe this significant a bubble along with the models you mentioned can sustain itself. Where I live there is also a signific... 

Coming from a vintage rolex collector point of view.

 
 By: Bill : May 30th, 2021-16:25
We typically do not have the reference point of retail price ever unless you consider the original $265 an 1965 Rolex submariner cost. So the dynamics of price are purely based on market price and this is driven by supply and demand. There is nothing rati... 

Very well said, Bill.

 
 By: amanico : May 30th, 2021-17:39

+1 Bill, sad but true

 
 By: holdemchamp1225 : May 30th, 2021-19:11

Will u pay 3x for a green nautilus

 
 By: Cookies : May 31st, 2021-02:42
One came up for me today through my contacts. I am lost. Thing is if I have it, i don’t even wanna sell it but 3 x to me regardless of speculative value feels odd.

Very excellent point. One difference with vintage

 
 By: emcquillan : May 31st, 2021-02:51
Is the relatively low production numbers compared to day and especially so with a piece still under production, however your point is an excellent one.

Yes indeed

 
 By: Cookies : May 30th, 2021-16:58
Nothing more than a faulty virus-infected tulip. It was an interesting book. Or the Emperors new clothes...is quite similar. Paying for literally “nothing” special.

To your final point, Bruno, I'm not sure anyone here has ever said . . .

 
 By: Dr No : May 30th, 2021-17:24
. . . 'why buy x when you can have y for the same price and y is objectively better'. But if anyone has, then the point to be made in return is that appreciation for a particular watch isn't constrained by purely objective considerations. An unworn '58 Su... 

This is a great post! Thank you for putting it out there. There’s many schools of thought and several have been shared already.

 
 By: Obeezy : May 30th, 2021-18:42
What I would really like to know, albeit very unlikely that we could put our hand on it, is what prompted the craze? I’m most especially wondering about the 5711. What is it that suddenly piqued the interest in it. To a milder extent, I wonder the same ab... 

Paying over $100k for a $50k watch is not as crazy as paying $200/share for a $15/share company like GameStop.

 
 By: U3O8 : May 30th, 2021-19:43
At least you end up with a timepiece on your wrist that keeps good time. We live in times of helicopter money. People are bored. Sitting at home. No vacations. Casinos closed. Sports betting just opened back up.

Good point. And when the merry-go-round ends . . .

 
 By: Dr No : May 30th, 2021-19:47
. . . one wonders how the folks who bought their 5711s at a premium will feel when the ready cash that pushed prices upwards disappears. 😉

I much rather get the Rubens !

 
 By: Mr.Gatsby : May 30th, 2021-20:16
And then have your nephew paint me Rothko LOL

+1

 
 By: Daandeluxe : May 30th, 2021-21:59
I totally agree with your observation, nevertheless I would prefer the Rubens… What about the famous peanutbutterfloor here in a museum in the Netherlands, I really don’t get it….

Well the positive outcome of all these crazy prices.....

 
 By: TonyR : May 30th, 2021-22:28
For rather pedestrian watches is that the value of "real" watches have firmed up considerably. I've sat on a Lange collection for years that hasn't move in value. All of the sudden the Odysseus comes out and it's breathed new life into the entire brand. I... 

I think what bothers people regarding watches as opposed to art is, one can visit a public museum to view and, more precisely, experience art. The Tate Museum in London for example...

 
 By: oyster case : May 31st, 2021-01:21
you can simply breeze in and sit and experience Turner's masterpieces. No one needs to own a Picasso if they live in Barcelona. One can visit local galleries and engage in artistic circles without ever owning anything. Owning art is simply not necessary t... 

I like the Rubens better…

 
 By: LS : May 31st, 2021-03:29
I would take it over the Rothko any day. There were many artists and artisans throughout history who “popped” while they lived or in the few decades after their passing but now are unknown or unloved. Frederic Church and Gustav Stickley are two that come ... 

Great provocative post...

 
 By: pfang56 : May 31st, 2021-15:09
I think anytime we spend more than 100 dollars on a watch we are already beyond the realm of realistic value. I recently had a bit of an epiphany last weekend - when shopping with my daughter and considering a particular watch from a particular brand, she... 

In art and design...

 
 By: jporos : May 31st, 2021-20:01
apparent simplicity often hides a great deal of long and hard work to reach that 'effortless' result. I would suggest this is the ultimate appeal of both the Rothko and the Patek 5711. (by the way, the Rothko Chapel in Houston, Texas is truly an incredibl...