Henke
120
Thanks for explaining!
Nov 16, 2022,19:16 PM
But this phenomenon makes me more doubtful. I would imagine the vibrational forces coupling the two balances together at the moment of impact would be orders of magnitude less than external shocks acting on the balances as they move, and so only would affect synchronization after many periods (which is indeed what we see on startup)
If you want to do some citizen science, here's what I would do. First, obtain a set of data measuring the time it takes for the balances to sync on startup. I would imagine the results will be a range, depending on what the phase difference between balances happened to be on startup. If we get enough points to represent the whole range, then we can plug those into Andrea's equations to obtain an effective k. Once we know a k, then we can model how many periods it takes to re-sync given an external shock which knocks the balances off sync by however many 2pi/period.
It may be that the phase difference resulting from external shock will be corrected in a few periods so in the second timescale, or it may be longer. I believe that this is what BFP is actually asking for - however this goes much beyond proof of concept, as we are now working with empirical numbers. Just building a scale up model won't do, as you're interrogating the timescale of re-sync which depends entirely on the forces and constants specific to the working movement.
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Resonance described through control theory
By: andrea~ : November 13th, 2022-21:43
Have you ever heard of a feedback loop? If you haven't, I can best describe it as a way in which a system can actively detect its output through a sensor and make changes to its variables in order to achieve and maintain a certain desired state automatica...
Gorgeous movement,
By: InHavenPro : November 13th, 2022-23:55
inspiring science. Love it, Filip
Thank you!
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-07:19
Exactly
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-07:19
The mechanical coupling happens through vibrations, and the mainplate is the means to achieve it, since both oscillators are mounted on top of it.
That's very cool
By: Henke : November 14th, 2022-07:47
I wonder if they're using any special materials on the mainplate to enhance the coupling... I'd expect something more rigid would be better? No doubt shape would matter as well... I guess I'm wondering how much this effect has been optimized with modern m...
By: Henke : November 14th, 2022-08:11
Haha, looks like I would have to get a brass resonance to satisfy my optimization tendencies then! That's very bad news for my wallet though, I guess I'll have to stick with admiring my little CS for now...
It's exactly that
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-08:52
The resonance effect makes the balances couple by the mechanical waves that propagate through the mainplate
How does all this hold up with a moving wrist?
By: BigFatPauli : November 14th, 2022-13:32
We've all seen the metronomes sync up on a table but has anyone tried it, say, in a moving car on a road? I think we can all easily envision their inability to stay synced with each bump or turn. Clock makers used the system in clocks, which are stationar...
There's a difference
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-20:16
This analogy doesn't necessarily work since metronomes in a car would have to be fixed to the car and even then there's a huge difference with resonance in a wrist watch. The effect of your wrist moving doesn't impact the vibrations of the oscillators in ...
There's a difference
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-20:16
This analogy doesn't necessarily work since metronomes in a car would have to be fixed to the car and even then there's a huge difference with resonance in a wrist watch. The effect of your wrist moving doesn't impact the vibrations of the oscillators in ...
I'm not a huge Journe fan
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-21:15
I'm personally not a mechanical engineer so my knowledge of the field is restricted, from what I can understand it seems like it does work, but again, I'm not qualified to talk about that aspect. Being skeptic can be good of course, proof is important, I ...
Well, one thing to consider is how it is implemented by other brands...
By: BigFatPauli : November 14th, 2022-22:02
Consider Dufour, for example, where he used a differential system. That system as also adopted by MB&F. Armin Strom uses a "Resonance Clutch Spring". In all cases, the balances are physically connected which is probably more reliable than counting on ...
There's a few differences
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-22:10
In the case of the Dufour, the watch isn't about the use of resonance, that's why it's not the same as the Journe. The Resonance Clutch Spring is a nice feature, but not essential for resonance to happen. Resonance was actually discovered when Christiaan ...
"Resonance was actually discovered when Christiaan Huygens ...
By: BigFatPauli : November 14th, 2022-23:26
...observed how the two pendulum clocks he had on the wall of his room synchronized after oscillating for a while. Just like the wall allowed for that coupling, the mainplate allows for the coupling of the balances in the Chronometre A Resonance. " Sure. ...
Mine works.
By: TheMadDruid : November 15th, 2022-00:05
Have you ever played with one? Worn one? I wouldn’t be so condescending about something I hadn’t experienced myself.
I think without some serious calculus
By: Henke : November 15th, 2022-03:35
You would not be able to provide a proof of concept. That is, I don't believe that a proof of concept would be "simple", and I don't believe that a simple explanation would be "proof". That being said, I'm not a mechanical engineer but I would believe tha...
That's so true!
By: andrea~ : November 15th, 2022-07:27
It's not an easy thing to prove, this is not my field, but everything makes sense to me. I'd gladly lend you a resonance if I had it 😅
It actually should be an easy thing to prove....
By: BigFatPauli : November 15th, 2022-12:07
The whole concept is based on metronomes on a table syncing, or clocks on a wall. That's the proof of concept. Simple. The fly in the ointment is that the table or wall are stationary and not having external, irregular forces acted on them (like a moving ...
The balances are fixed in relative position to each other
By: Henke : November 15th, 2022-17:41
So translational movements such as "slightly nudging the watch" as you say will affect both equally. The movements which will act significantly differently on the wheels involve rotations about a center which is close to one balance wheel. The distance fr...
I don't have a way do that while wearing the watch and moving around.
By: BigFatPauli : November 16th, 2022-11:39
But, yes, I would I love to see a video like that. More so, I would like to see someone put one a machine able to measure the two seperate beat rates and amplitudes, be able to move that around, and see how long it takes for the balances to naturally re-s...
Paul raises a good point though.
By: Cozmopak : November 16th, 2022-22:37
I believe that the resonance system works while at rest, but I would like to see proof that it persists with the wrist in motion. That's important. Or if it doesn't persist, how long does it take for it to come back in sync?
I imagine it will decrease variance
By: Henke : November 15th, 2022-09:39
From factors caused by differences between individual balance wheels/springs such as manufacturing and setting imperfections, but not those caused by factors affecting both wheels equally such as position on the wrist... Unless perhaps Journe designs a re...
To be honest,
By: Henke : November 16th, 2022-05:49
I never understood why one had to be slow and one had to be fast. I've always thought the point of resonance to cancel out variances within the operation of each balance - to improve precision, not accuracy. Intuitively, that should occur no matter if the...
On the Micro level you are right, of course
By: ChristianDK : November 16th, 2022-18:36
They can not be regulated to exactl same. Just close enough and then they will begin to synchronize and resonate. This does help timekeeping in that er evens out error and creates a more stable running. To your other question about what is more accurate, ...
Yes, he is quite clear on this
By: ChristianDK : November 17th, 2022-07:08
He considers a Tourbillon, first and foremost a thing of beauty and fascinating. He has said that installing a Tourbillon is like deliberately breaking a leg to put a casket on it to fix a problem. It solves a problem but it also creates more problems tha...
Thanks for explaining!
By: Henke : November 16th, 2022-19:16
But this phenomenon makes me more doubtful. I would imagine the vibrational forces coupling the two balances together at the moment of impact would be orders of magnitude less than external shocks acting on the balances as they move, and so only would aff...
what a nice post Andrea
By: ChristianDK : November 14th, 2022-15:49
I really appreciate it. (even if formulas are not my strong side ;-)) I dont know if you ever watched this lecture at HSNY. I hope you will find it interesting. The Resonance is a very stimulating and fascinating watch in so many levels. Your last words i...
I did
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-17:12
It was really insightful and helped me develop the mathematical model for this simulation
It's a pleasure!
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-20:17
I am an engineer, I studied control systems in the past but now my focus is on materials science
Grande!
By: massi. : November 14th, 2022-20:53
Grazie! 😊
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-20:55
Excellent, Grazie Andreas.
By: ChristianDK : November 14th, 2022-23:03
Its a pleasure with such well informed argumentation. It reminds of the day I sat for some time with the watchmaker who assembles the Resonance and bombarded him with all kinds of questions. I asked him; "how can you be sure its not just two well regulate...
It must have been incredible to see!
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-23:18
The resonance and the optimum are both fantastic pieces of horology and fascinating in how they approach chronometry
Thank you, it's a pleasure!
By: andrea~ : November 14th, 2022-20:59
The great thing about this is that even within science, watches have many facets that can be explored, from mechanics to materials and everything inbetween, it's an endless pit of interesting discoveries
Definitely:
By: massi. : November 14th, 2022-21:06
I remember as a child I was amazed at how such a small thing, to look at with the loupe, could produce such a loud tick-tock! Unfortunately, many have fallen for knowledge! 😢
Ha! I had forgotten all about this article. Thank you, A!
By: ChristianDK : November 17th, 2022-07:16
It encapsulates perfectly the delta between the vivid imaginations of members of watch forums versus real watches and real watchmakers. Kudos to Jack Forster for writing this. A former moderator here BTW.
👍🏽
By: cmmnsens : November 17th, 2022-17:09
Through the mainplate, really ?
By: Steyr : November 19th, 2022-08:06
Well, I have no doubts that both balance wheels are synched. I've seen it, and I am totally OK with that conclusion. But "How ?" still bothers me I don't believe this can happen through the mainplate. The energy would have to follow quite a path to make i...
Hi Steyer, that is indeed a super interesting question....
By: ChristianDK : November 19th, 2022-18:30
I will refer you to an article written by Jack Forster for Revolution Magazine in 2014 on the matter. In the article he is referring to George Daniels book "The Art Of Breguet" and how Breguet was studying experiments with vacuum. This article was already...