First of all I would like to thank you (Fr.Xavier) ...

Apr 02, 2013,01:09 AM
 

for your comprehensive comparison which also offers some food for thought.

I understand that you didn´t have proper pictures from the Lange PT version, but maybe the comparison would have been slighty different in result - at least in some points.




FX, I hope you don´t mind if I add some of my pictures and thoughts.

The watches look quite big on your wrist, at least on the pictures. I don´t have pictures of the Lange, but from the PP.

For comparison, two different wrists - Magnus & me:











Both watches are impressive because of the amount of complications shown.

One is a beauty form the first sight, just because almost any detail is known from classical pocket watches. Maybe that´s why it looks so good - even without wrist.

One is the latest evolution of something they did before. It shows a product (in general) we know from them quite well, it shows improvements (already mentioned by FX) and maybe for some it shows new, uncommon or shall I say weird details; e.g. bold indexes and hands, position of the moon phase. The latter examples could be a reason that not everybody likes it from the beginning. It probably needs some time on your wrist and personal experiences to appreciate it, or not.

Both watches share (almost) the same complications, but represent different houses with (very) different approaches of watchmaking. Both watches are created like a business case and I guess a successful one.

Both watches don´t represent the pinnacle of watchmaking, because we have seen something complicated like this in a more sophisticated way before, haven´t we?

I could imagine both watches on my wrist, but would not spend my own money on them. Why?

Well, if we already talk about that amount of money I would go one (or two smile ) step(s) further and try to get the "real thing". Something that is more pleasant/comfortable on my wrist and closer to the pinnacle of watchmaking. Sticking to the same kind of complications, there is nothing on offer from Lange. If we look to the current collection from Patek, the Ref. 5951 comes to my mind ...

Lange - they impressed me quite often with their solutions (by design & technic) - in the past. It was and still is refreshing to see outstanding watches like the Lange 1, the ALS PLM, the DS, the Zeitwerk and others. They are still outstanding and promising. Today we see more offerings which feel like they stick to the past and they miss to make me hungry for more. The problem I see is not the quality (in general) or something like this, it is just their vision looks less promising than before.

Anyway, it is great to have discussions like this about products on that high level and maybe some of us are very happy and can follow their hearts ... smile

Oliver

 





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Lange 1815 Rattrapante PC vs Patek 5204: the clash

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-05:56
The recent presentation of the Lange Sohne 1815 Rattrapante PC gives me the opportunity to make a syde-by-side comparison with his Patek alter-ego, the 5204. If Patek remains the most prestigious brand, Lange, since the unveiling of its first contemporary...  

Excellent comparison Xavier

 
 By: samwan : April 1st, 2013-06:39
You answered many questions on my mind, which is now made up I have one question though - would you prefer the PT or RG version of the Lange, and why? Million thanks and cheers Sam ...  

Thanks Sam! My fav version is...

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-09:55
...the Platinum one. Why? Even if I'm a PG guy, I prefer due to the size of the watch a neutral colour. Moreover, I think that the blued hands of the chronograph combine better with a platinum case. Even if the watch becomes heavier, I prefer the PT versi...  

Wow! Lots of food for thoughts here! Heavy stuff, like...

 
 By: Sandgroper : April 1st, 2013-06:43
comparing a Ferrari to a Porsche, or a BMW to a Mercedes Benz or other more Exotic v another Exotic. I have a leaning already but this is unfair as it has more to do with "politics" than real High Horology. So, for now, I will quietly read your article, d... 

Thanks François!

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-10:01
I had a lot of pleasure to write it and the unveiling of the 1815 gave me this opportunity. Fx

Thank you for this very nice write up FX. In the end.....

 
 By: Sandgroper : April 2nd, 2013-02:12
I think that I would have come to the same conclusions, yes I definitely prefer the dial lay out of the Patek but the hands are not very nice and combined with the heavy and uneven index markers makes it look heavy compared to the Lange. I have not had th... 

A little scoop?

 
 By: Fricks : April 1st, 2013-08:01
... i heard that on the production version of the 5204P, we'll have gold hands and indexes. This should give a totally new feel, even though i love this one. What bothers me in Lange is : - Power reserve took the prime location for nothing. Anyway with su... 

Thanks a lot for your comments!

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-10:09
I think that there is another reason for Lange to not use the big date: to preserve a reasonable movement height. With a big date, the movement would have been much thicker. Thanks a lot for your detailed comments! I agree with some on them even if at the... 

You presented two worthy contenders...

 
 By: fernando : April 1st, 2013-08:14
for a fascinating dual. A difficult one to call as it goes down to the wire. I wish you had the PT. Lange for comparison instead of RG. Anyway, both are winners in my books. Hmmm, if forced to take one, I may choose the ....... something to sleep on I thi... 

Sadly Fernando...

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-10:14
I could only publish the wristshot of the PT version but not the other pics. If I have the chance to shoot it again, I will publish them. Thanks for your comments! Fx ...  

Wonderful review

 
 By: optionc : April 1st, 2013-08:30
Thank you for the write up. It is a wonderful comparison of two horological heavyweights. Although an unabashed Lange fan, I prefer the 5204p in this incarnation. Nevertheless, I would be delighted to own either one! OpC

great, fair and informative comparison

 
 By: donizetti : April 1st, 2013-09:19
thanks a lot! In the end I would still prefer the Lange but the Patek comes very close in this comparison. Best Andreas

Thanks Andreas, I couldn't expect another choice from you!

 
 By: foversta : April 1st, 2013-10:15
BTW, I was in Köln a few weeks ago but for profesionnal reasons: I couldn't contact you because I didn't have any free time. Next time I hope! Fx

A Function Question

 
 By: jkingston : April 1st, 2013-09:27
Excellent post, Francois! I do have a question however. With the new generation of perpetual chronos, Patek took a massive step.....backward. Previously with the 3970 and 5970, all calendar indications could be advanced one day with a pusher at 11 o'clock... 

Dear Jeff, I have the answer from Tino.

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:42
So I copy and paste it: Yes, the new 1815 Rattrapante Perpetual Calendar is equipped with the same system for resetting all calendar indications together as the Datograph Perpetual. The difference is that because of the Rattrapante pusher at 10 o'clock th... 

Thanks, Francois

 
 By: jkingston : April 3rd, 2013-09:20
Yes indeed. This is a very important plus for Lange in this comparison. Actually it is a huge point one that decides the issue completely. Game, set, match......Lange.

Completely agree.

 
 By: jimjenkins : April 6th, 2013-21:44
In addition, the bulbous-bottom chrono seconds hands in Patek are so bulky that they become distracting (just look at the black ink splash at the middle of the picture) and block the 31,1 dates when re-set. Older 5004 had the very slender chrono seconds h... 

My winner is the 5004...

 
 By: patrick_y : April 1st, 2013-10:29
Thank you Foversta for this interesting comparison. A battle among the giants! I love the aesthetics of the 5004, the movement was interesting despite it not being in-house, the size, dial layout, and buttons are all beautiful and classic. The 5204 has a ... 

Thanks Patrick for your comments!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:39
Me too I was very seduced by the 5004 but it is a watch I've never trusted... But what a beauty! Fx

What a terrific essay here!

 
 By: MichaelC : April 1st, 2013-13:02
Thank you for this wonderful post. I am an expert of neither brand, but a fan of both. My honest choice here is definitely the Lange. It has a much more special feel to my heart than the Patek does. Considering your detailed remarks, I'm sure I could conv... 

Thanks a lot Michael!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:37
You know, even after a detailed side by side comparison, only the heart speaks... Fx

Wonderful writeup!

 
 By: docfink : April 1st, 2013-18:19
I can't imagine owning either, so I appreciate your excellent comparison and pictures.

Thanks a lot Docfink!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:35
Me either I can't imagine to own one of them but I had the same pleasure to write the article! Fx

I give my vote to the Lange

 
 By: docsnov : April 1st, 2013-20:52
I prefer the Lange design and finishing to the Patek. The finishing on the Lange movement stands out more without being gaudy, as you said. It looks like more effort was put in to that side of the watch. I would prefer the longer power reserve of the Pate... 

Thanks Stewart for your comments!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:33
There is pros and cons about the power reserve display: after all, we know that we have to wind it everyday but I think it is a good idea on a PC watch. Fx

First of all I would like to thank you (Fr.Xavier) ...

 
 By: small-luxury-world : April 2nd, 2013-01:09
for your comprehensive comparison which also offers some food for thought. I understand that you didn´t have proper pictures from the Lange PT version, but maybe the comparison would have been slighty different in result - at least in some points. FX, I h...  

Dear Oliver, I very much appreciate your input and thoughts.....

 
 By: Sandgroper : April 2nd, 2013-04:05
and the picture you have manage to give us of the 2 watches in question with the added white metal one, thank you. I do agree with you that these two magnificent time keepers do not attain the pinnacle of horological movements, I think that the Patek Phil... 

Thanks a lot Oliver for your detailed and illustrated answer.

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:31
I understand your point of view on both Manufactures. You are right to be demanding with such brands. Thanks a lot for your feelings. Fx

I really like the 5204

 
 By: Mostel : April 4th, 2013-16:08
but, in no way , does it LOOK like it's price tag, to me. Whereas the Lange LOOKS like its price tag. If I were a buyer for these, it would be Lange.

"He' s not the Messiah-He's just a naughty boy!"

 
 By: COUNT DE MONET : April 2nd, 2013-01:30
This counts for both of them. The Lange is not state of the art enough with low pr and no isolator and the Patek too traditional by paying an unreasonably amount of credit to tradition resulting in 60 little flaws. What is than the key factor in buying on... 

Thanks a lot Moritz!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:27
It is a bit the conclusion: there is no clear winner here... Fx

My vote's for the 1815 RPC...

 
 By: Rhyzen : April 2nd, 2013-06:35
.... In my opinion, its dial outshines the Patek, and is daringly original and fresh without being tacky. Another clear winner by ALS.

Thanks a lot Rhyzen!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:26
Me too, I have a soft love for the 1815 dial: I find it more appealing to my eyes. Fx

Thanks Baron!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:25
Even if this movement is maybe not as impressive than the DS one, it is still a beautiful one. Fx

I hate to say it, but I prefer the Patek.

 
 By: amanico : April 2nd, 2013-06:54
I was enthusiasmed by the Lange when I saw it through the windows of the Lange booth at the SIHH, but your detailed pictures make me prefer the Patek. On all the cirterias you mentionned, even on the movement layout. I odn't like these two lost bridges in... 

Thanks a lot for your input.

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:24
Me either, I'm not a great fan of the 2 holes... but I have to confess that they make the subdials clearer... an unique hand per subdial is a very positive result. Fx

Me being me, the winner would naturlich be the Lange

 
 By: BluNotte : April 2nd, 2013-09:00
Hands down. Anytime. Danke for the interesting clash report though! Tschuss Stephen

Thanks Stephen!

 
 By: foversta : April 2nd, 2013-13:20
Like you my heart goes to Lange.. and I tried to put some unbiased reasons in my choice! ;) fx

It's a great pleasure to read through

 
 By: berceuse : April 3rd, 2013-04:57
Thanks a lot for your detailed comparision of the two great watches!

Overall, I prefer Patek 5204 even though these 2 are very close.

 
 By: ling5hk : April 3rd, 2013-17:33
Especially for dial and movement lay out, Patek has shown an aesthetically more pleasant work. Patek has "something" that Lange is missing. Having said that, Lange is till my favourite brand. Regards Ling

Thanks Ling for your comments!

 
 By: foversta : April 6th, 2013-00:55
The little something is maybe what we call the "prestige"? Fx

I am afraid not, Xavier.

 
 By: ling5hk : April 7th, 2013-18:24
"Prestige" does not make one watch looks nicer than the other. It may be due to their rich traditional background which has created strong culture within the organisation. This one, they did it right but not many others. I am confused. Regards Ling

Thanks for the review it's very detailed and Lange is my favorite.

 
 By: bulentvural93 : April 4th, 2013-13:32
Patek is the number one for its technical horology,on the other hand i like the colours of Lange so my choice would be course this is a cosmetic choice...

You know, cosmetic is very important...

 
 By: foversta : April 6th, 2013-00:54
It is after all what we see first and most of the time... Thanks! Fx

Thanks for the very comprehensive comparison!

 
 By: pipat58 : April 5th, 2013-00:25
I agreed with all your points and comments. Please keep them coming. BTW, Lange is a better watch in my view too. Thanks and best regards, Punpakorn

Thank you FX for your usual excellent report....

 
 By: Topcat30093 : April 5th, 2013-11:30
And photos. Both are magnificent pieces and very worthy contenders. I am not proficient enough to pass judgement on which one is better than the other. Plenty for's and against have already been said. The movements on both pieces are true wprks of art and... 

Great post. I've been struggling with my thoughts on this one...

 
 By: Moses : April 7th, 2013-02:17
Whenever I look at this Lange movement I am ever so slightly underwhelmed. I don't like how the balance is buried, it takes away from the visual balance. Also the movement doesn't seem to have quite the depth, that miniature city under sapphire feel, that... 

I like things clean

 
 By: Le Monde Edmond : April 7th, 2013-09:58
I love things that are clean, straightforward and just harmonious. For me the Patek wins hands down. I am a big fan of Lange but not this model range. A zeitwerk, yes! A simple 1815 yes! A datograph, yes please! But here Patek wins my heart with its more ... 

Did anybody see the wire spring?

 
 By: dsgalaxy1 : November 8th, 2013-05:43
How can you accept it in such an high end movement? lange has lost more credits at my eyes.... ...  

Not the first time that Lange cuts corners ...

 
 By: COUNT DE MONET : November 9th, 2013-02:37
... the third time, in my recollection. But thank you for pointing this out as it is easily overlooked. Moritz

Yes.. When I first saw it..

 
 By: yming : November 9th, 2013-05:00
I thought it was very unsightly... And the balance wheel is totally hidden

I would say more...

 
 By: dsgalaxy1 : November 9th, 2013-05:15
it's unacceptable in what we recognize as one of the best manufacturer of watches. they are artful because many pictures hide the wire spring!

Just stumbled across this years later and was WOWED!

 
 By: BABKA : September 5th, 2015-13:09
It was an incredible read and a perfect comparison. Thanks a bunch Xavier!

I had the immense pleasure of trying on the 1815 Rattrapante..

 
 By: tempocalypse : September 7th, 2015-00:07
.. at the Lange boutique at the Dubai Mall recently. A true dream watch if there ever was one :D Bit out of reach at the moment but will look for a 1st gen Datograph soon. Anyway I had a long discussion with the sales lady about the watch and she mentione...  

Thanks a lot for your wristshot!

 
 By: foversta : September 7th, 2015-14:49
And can you please thank the nice lady the next time you see her? ;) I really enjoyed your message! Fx

How Valuable the Power Reserve Indicator

 
 By: jgelman : October 26th, 2016-01:33
This is my first post on this forum, where I am clearly in the midst of very knowledgeable collectors (I am an newbie). I have been considering a watch purchase for some time, and what interested me most was the Patek 3940P and the Journe Platinum Octa Au... 

welcome and congrats

 
 By: yming : October 26th, 2016-04:57
On ur new acquisitions.. Abt your power reserve question, the 1815 perpetual split Chrono has a power reserve of 42hrs only.. Which means you will need to wind the watch Everyday and thus makes the power indicator unnecessary..

Power Reserve

 
 By: jgelman : October 26th, 2016-14:13
I would think that even if a manual wind was to be wound every day (no fun I imagine if you do not wear the watch every day and go away at times for a few days), it would seem useful to know when wearing the watch the amount of power reserve (especially i... 

Thanks so much for a wonderful review. Just one more question...

 
 By: Huei : October 28th, 2016-19:56
How do you compare the feel of the chrono pushers for these 2 watches, in particular when you activate the split second mechanism. Which one requires more strength and which one is more coherent in terms of activating the chrono pusher followed by the spl... 

The 2nd clash!!!

 
 By: p.boxster : December 31st, 2016-05:41
After acquiring the 1815 Rattrapante, yesterday I had the once-in-a-lifetime-opportunity the compare it directly with it`s pendant: The Patek 5204P. Another clash Both the Platinum Versions, these versions are the ones I like most of each watch. The most ...