JLC Unique Auction Paris, 29th of November: The Results.

Dec 01, 2011,04:19 AM

We will certainly come back to the results of this auction, but I cannot resist to share with you my first impressions.

- First of all, I think we can say that it was a crazy night. A lot of people was attending the second session ( I couldn't be there for the afternoon session, sadly ), physically and through internet and the the phone, which generated some serious fights on some models.

- On 565 pieces, approximatively 220 were not sold, which was predictable.

- The Vintage went better than the moderns... We'll have to think about it and to try to explain why.

- The icons of the Manufacture reached some extraordinary levels. We can even say that some of them were awarded by world records!

- A lot of pieces went under the estimate,under the reserve price or just at the lower estimate.

It is logical when the pieces are in so so condition, it is a deception when they are in good condition and / or when they had a serious interest, which may be explained, in this last case, by the fact that the estimates were way too high, for them.

For those who didn't reach the reserve price, what will happen? You will have the answer at the end of this post...

BUT the prices weren't ridiculous, for the Vintage.

- We can say that we attended the birth of some stars, which reached some strong prices, even if they are not very well known, which leads me to think that more and more people has interest on Vintage JLC watches, and show some undisputable wisdom.

- The Heritage Gallery was here, and bidded on many pieces, but the fight was hard, and they didn't get all the watches, pocket watches and clocks they bidded on, by far.

Please note that ALL the prices I give are WITHOUT the buyer's premium, which means that you have to add 23 to 25 %!

I- The Vintage:

The brown chocolate dial of the E 855 ( Lot 411 ) I showed you ended at 2200 Euros ( estilmate: 3 / 5000 ).

The black E 855 ( Lot 387 ) went for 4 000 Euros ( estimate: 5 / 8000 ) when we saw that it could go much higher in perfect condition.

Why did the other black Memovox with its repainted dial do better, I can't tell you, this is a mystery to me...

The Memo Word Time Beau Brummel ( lot 397 ) has gone in a very nice house for 2500 Euros which corresponds to the low estimate.

The 2 Memovox Parkings went for 1800 ( lot 375 ) and 1400 Euros ( lot 378 ) when their estimate was 1500 / 2500.

Despite its small size ( 30 mm ) the Dolphin ( lot 337 ) has " done " a very nice 2200 Euros but the condition of this watch was excellent.

Same observation for the lot 339, which made an excellent price: 3200 Euros ( twice the upper estimate! ), even with its wrong hands. Jaeger Diving watch from the Seventies.

Honorable, also, the two Master Mariner Deep Sea ( 3400 Euros each ).

As we are on the Diving watches from JLC, the true stars were, without doubt, the Polaris and the Deep Sea Alarms.

Not yet the Polaris II, which went under the estimate ( 2700 Euros for the lot 335, 3200 Euros for the Red version, lot 336 ).

But the Polaris '65 ( lot 334 ) reached an excellent 20 000 Euros, beaten, which is a surprise, by the Polaris '68, much less rare, which made 23 000 Europs ( lot 338 ). The difference of condition, maybe?

The absolute winner is the Deep Sea Alarm Europe, which was sold for ... 38 000 Euros. A World Première, despite its condition. BUT a true rarity! ( Lot 330 ), while its sister, the american went for ... 33 000 Euros, which is just excellent ( lot 331 ).

The Chronographs made some excellent scores, even if lower than the estimate.

Lot 319: 12 000 Euros ( 12 / 15 000 ).

Lot 322: 12 000 Euros ( 13 / 18 000 ).

And one, a very nice 36 mm medical in stainless steel ( lot 321 ) did 6 000 Euros ( 5 / 8000 ).

The Chronometers knew som different fortunes.

The Cal 906 ( lot 363 and 364 ) went much above the estimate ( 3 / 5000 Euros ) with a hammer which fell at 2 000 and 1900 Euros.

Not bad for a not so known watch, though...

The deception was the lot 365, the very rare and interesting Master Mariner Chronometer, which did only 3600 Euros, while the reserve was at 4 000 Euros.

I still hope it will find a great home...

The condition of the dial, or the too optimistic estimate?

While the Geophysic with its poor dial went above the estimate with a hammer falling at 8500 Euros, the bidders fought hard on the yellow gold and rose gold versions, which ended at 20 000 Euros ( lot 366 ) and ... 31 000 Euros ( lot 369 ).

When the quality of the piece is at the rendez vous, there is no bad surprise with the outcome, indeed.

Congratulations to the Heritage Gallery for the Rose Gold Geophysic!

Another mystery is that the Geophysic Lot 367 went for 14 500 Euros.... With a repainted dial. Lucky seller.

The Geomatic didn't know the same success, but the condition was not here...Except the Tonneau which was auctionned at 5000 Euros ( low estimate, lot 372 ).

The Reversos went very well.

Better, they made some world record.

The Blue ( lot 71 ) is the new Champion, with a hammer price of ... 38 000 Euros.

While the other Blue ( lot 432 ) did a superb 32 000 Euros, the Chocolate ( lot 431 ) : 20 500 Euros, and the Red ( lot 430 ) 23 000 Euros.

A confirmation of their iconic status, without doubt...

Some stars were born, yesterday night...

Here, I would give a special mention to the SHOMs:

The SHOM Nr 13 ( lot 359 ) estimated at 10 / 15 000 Euros, went for... 12 000 Euros!

While the Marine Nationale did 15 000 Euros ( lot 360 ) :

The Military watches had some success, especially the Mark VII ( lot 348 ) hammered at 4000 Euros, and the Weems ( lot 354 ) which has gone for 6000 Euros!

While the 2 pocket watches went far from the lower estimate, at 600 Euros each... ( Lot 346 / 347 ).

2 marvels met a big success, I would even say phenomenal:

The lot 463, which is a platinum ultra thin pocket watch, Cal 145, went higher than the estimate, hammered at 20 000 Euros.

And a superb Perpetual Calendar Staybrite, lot 503, which has gone for ... 70 000 Euros.

Another iconic time piece from the Manufacture met a great success, the Atmos.

Especially the first ones, form the Thirties, as you can see wth the follwoing lots:

Lot 509: 18 000 Euros ( the one which was re edited last year )

Lot 510: 11 000 Euros.

Lot 511: 19 000 Euros.

Lot 517: 38 000 Euros ( World Record for this orange ambrolite Atmos! )

Lot 518: 21 000 Euros, which is one of my very favourite Art Deco Atmos:

II - The Moderns.

Here things were much more difficult....

I don't have the results from the Master Control Black dials and would be very interested to know how they did, but for the others, at the exception of the Atmos Newson ( lot 504 / 26 000 Euros! ), we cannot say that things did very well...

Most of them were under the lower estimate, sometimes in a dramatic way...

The Zep, lot 519, whose estimate was between 50 and 80 000 Euros, ended at 38 000.

The Master Grande Memovox in Rose Gold estimated between 15 000 and 20 000 Euros, was sold for 9000.

The only one which was not auctionned too low was the Grande Memovox in platinum, with a hammered price of 19 500 Euros.

An exception, the lot 530, a white gold Reverso with diamonds and lapis lazuli dial, and a Quartz movement, came for 11 000 Euros.

What to say about the MMR in Rose Gold, hammered at ... 48 000 Euros, or the Master 8 Days Perpoetual skeleton in the same metal, which ended at 29 500 Euros?

It is true that these pieces were discussed at the end of the auction, which ended late, and that after the vibrant fights on the iconic watches, it was not the best moment, but there is a lot to think about these results...

Which we will do later.

So, all in all, we can say that the results were logical: The iconic and interesting pieces went well, when in good condition.

Extremely well.

The so so pieces had the results they deserved.

With some deceptions, though, like, and I forgot it, another example, the Mystery I showed you, which is very rare and fine, or the Memovox E 855 brown scale dial, while the stainless steel blue scale dial did a superb 6500 Euros. Is it a problem of knowledge, of information about these important pieces, of communication?

Or the Master Mariner Chronometer, which should have deserved a better result, in my opinion, and which ended unsold as the reserve was not reached.

As for the Moderns, maybe it is time for JLC to think about this...

Such a nice watch as the Master Minute Repeater should have known a deeper affection if it wasn't developped in so many versions.

An exclusive watch has to be dsitributed and produced in an exclusive way...

The Tribute To Polaris and to Deep Sea Alarm are going very well, but they are one shot pieces, strictly limited.

Such nice pieces deserve some efforts in the communication, too.

There is still a lot to do, but the Grande Maison is on the good way, the recognition is here, through these results.

An evidence? One of the bidders was someone who had a very original idea: To create an investment funds company, focusing in watches.

Before, he bought Patek, Vacheron, and Rollex watches... Now, he starts to pay a serious interest in JLCs.

To be followed, of course.



PS: Here you will find all the results:





This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:26:35 This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:37:36 This message has been edited by amanico on 2011-12-01 06:39:11

More posts: GeophysicMaster Grande MemovoxMemovoxMemovox E 855Polaris 1965Polaris 1968

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Congrats to JLC and new owners

 By: Ares501 - Mr Green : December 1st, 2011-04:42
are there PuristS around that want to share some new beauties? Best Damjan

I'm curious to see that! ;) [nt]

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-06:31
No message body

Wish, I would.. if I only could ..

 By: hs111 : December 2nd, 2011-03:03
Yes, indeed, Congrats to both ! - One hopes, that several, no many - have found good new homes. Also just as an observer from the distance, but grateful for the reports.. All the best, Damjan hs

Thank you Nico...

 By: EdwardL : December 1st, 2011-04:47
for your insight to the results. Very interesting. I salute your hard work. Did you get your watch???? Best my friend. Ed

I assume you got the wrong result sheets.

 By: Clavi : December 1st, 2011-04:50
Nicolas, if it is still time to edit, I think you should look at the final results published yesterday, which shouls alter your analysis as most of the watches you pointed went unsold (there were many unsold lots : 46% of total lots auctionned, a deceptio... 

No, not the wrong result sheets, but what I heard.

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-06:09
Which also allows to guess that there was, maybe, a too big gap between the estimate and the value of the market... So, what I wrote is what happened ( on the 2d session, as I was not there for the first session ( Lots 1 to 299 ). The sheet I posted at th... 

Nic and Clavi...

 By: watchme : December 1st, 2011-07:57
I think that it reveals a few things: (1) Perhaps the auction house (or company) should have been different. Would Antiquorum or another house done a better job of pre-auction marketing to build interest and momentum? They definitely would have opened the... 

Some thoughts...

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-08:11
1/ I would be curious to see what would another auction house do, in another city, like NY or Geneva, for example. With an even more international " crowd ". 2/ As I attended the 2d part, I can only say what I saw. JLC was bidding on several pieces, won o... 

Do I get this right?

 By: HerrK : December 3rd, 2011-00:32
Excuse me please, Nicolas, but in the context of disappointing results of an auction " A lot of work has to be done, communication, posts, reviews, discusions, and ... Education" sounds to me as if the purpose of this forum was to enhance the value of som... 

Christian, I am afraid I didn't get what you wrote.

 By: amanico : December 3rd, 2011-00:48
But I' m pleased to discuss that. " The purpose of this forum was to enhance the value of someone's collection "? Who's collection? Certainly not mine, I didn't put for sale anything from my collection, so I felt free to speak about it. And I specially me... 

There is a fine line ...

 By: HerrK : December 4th, 2011-02:15
... between promoting the virtue of vintage watches altruistically and the self-interested enhancement of their value. This is true for anyone with enthusiasm in vintage watches, but especially for those of us who already own the watches which they promot... 

Ok, now I understand, Christian.

 By: amanico : December 4th, 2011-02:37
Like you, I'm a collector, not a seller.... And when I wrote that post, I didn't have in mind to promote my own collection to sell it in one week or in one month, even not in one year. As we can't know what life will reserve us, I can't say I won't sell m... 

In reality he does the work and I cash in ;-)

 By: PoyFR : December 4th, 2011-02:48
I have known Nicolas for a long time, and I can say that he is far from what you are here trying to imply. In fact many times, he and I post to inform lightly of what could be a sore experience for many buyers. If you do not understand this and if you hav... 

Poy, may I kindly ask you to ...

 By: HerrK : December 4th, 2011-14:10
. .. reread my post thoroughly. I did not allege or express myself negatively about someone. I was just giving voice to my puzzlement about Nicolas' post in the context of recent auction results. It is true, I do not know Nicolas personally - but from his... 

HerrK, however I read it, your interaction is weird...

 By: PoyFR : December 4th, 2011-22:15
To me, you are venting imaginary suspicions. Of course anything can be manipulated. Nicolas has near 50,000 posts, I believe none of which are in the Collectors Market, that to me is an unquestionable display of an incorruptible passionate enthusiams and ... 

That my dear Poy ...

 By: HerrK : December 5th, 2011-02:09
... was a joke referring to recent auction results - seemingly a quite obvious one! Yours weirdly, Christian

Love is in the air

 By: Clavi : December 5th, 2011-03:40
mmmm, the tone this conversation is taking leaves me puzzled. I think a legitimate question has been raised, and it has been answered in a very appropriate way by the person concerned. The rest of the thread could have been avoided I think, I don't see an... 

Thank You for your analysis Nico

 By: dreamer8 : December 1st, 2011-05:00
I checked the auction house for the sold prices earlier today and noted that the 2 versions of the vintage Deep Sea Alarm sold at prices nearly twice that of the vintage Polaris. Is it because the Deep Sea Alarm production is far less than the Polaris ? C... 

The European is super rare, while the US DSA had a production number

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-08:13
Very close to the '68 Polaris... This cannot be the explanation. Best, Nicolas.

Vintage JLC

 By: Le Monde Edmond : December 1st, 2011-07:30
The fact that the auction went well for the vintage JLC does not surprise me at all. JLC is one of the oldest manufacturers with an exceptionally rich history and I think Brands with a rich history will always attract buyers as they become better educated...  

You mentioinned the icons, and you're right. BUT

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-08:16
I think there is a lot of work to do on other Vintage pieces which are rare and beautiful. The Date Disc, the Mystery, the MM Chronometer, and many others should have known a better end, certainly. Let's speak about these watches! That is what I will do i... 

Thanks you for all your infos. Here, my thoughts....

 By: PoyFR : December 1st, 2011-11:18
Jaeger-LeCoultre has always been an important actor in the industry horology. It is recent (10 years) that JLC is adapting to its exposure as an important watch manufacturer and it climbs as near as possible to the top brands podium. Its past and the valu... 

Progress, certainly, but still a lot of work to do...

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-13:06
For JLC to get the recognition they deserve... Well put, POY. Best, Nicolas.

I always wonder how true the auction results can reflect the actual value of a watch?

 By: ling5hk : December 1st, 2011-16:15
Hi Nicolas, In general, successful bidded price plus 25% buyer's premium, the watches are not cheap, considering some of the "so-so" condition pieces. So, JLC has done quite well. I am not surprised at all that the vintage pieces had out performed the mod... 

It is indeed a guide, Ling, and only one auction can't reflect the truth, we agree.

 By: amanico : December 1st, 2011-20:56
But it's been a while since Vintage JLC are doing well, at the auctions. You're right, a lot of things can happen at an auction. Two weeks ago, we saw a black E 855 going for 20 000 CHF. Who would have guessed that??? It was because there was a fight betw... 

From a humble distance.. First of all..

 By: hs111 : December 2nd, 2011-02:57
.. a BIG, indeed very big Thank you for this report, update, education, AND pleasure, you again provided to us, Nico ! ( Thanks to Clavi , as well, in am appropriate way !) I first had to read and re-read it, digest some of it, think about it - and well, ... 

It is a long journey, made of great joys, and smetimes, of deceptions.

 By: amanico : December 2nd, 2011-03:20
It takes time, my friend, as every solid journey you consider... But the reward is as huge as the efforts. You know that, you experienced it yourself. As for your questions, yes, the owner can decide to get the unsold pieces, or to put them in a further a... 

Words of wisdom.. Words of friendship.. They go a long way ! :))

 By: hs111 : December 2nd, 2011-07:54
-- Thank you for these so kind sentiments, Truly I missed you all and all that else. BUT, there always can and will be a next time, hopefully .. Best, my friend in return, also for your weekend ! hs

Planning to come soon? You're always welcome. [nt]

 By: amanico : December 2nd, 2011-08:38
No message body

Thx soo much.. Could be Q1/ next year, J'espère .. ;)

 By: hs111 : December 2nd, 2011-09:20
- BUT, as always : how good to know ! ) Difficult wait, anyway .. Paris.. Lights.. Friends.. Armagnac.. and else... Best again, hs PS: - pls see my PM

Thanks a lot for the report of the auction results.

 By: foversta : December 2nd, 2011-15:30
So, if I understand you well, you feel that this auction was positive for the JLC image. Obviously, a highlight on the rich history of the Manufacture thanks such event is never a bad thing. But don't you think that the number of timepieces was too large ... 

I have mixed feelings, here.

 By: amanico : December 2nd, 2011-15:51
On the first post I made on this auction, I said that I was surprised by the fact that there were too many pieces, of unequal quality, to say the least. I even predicted that there will be many unsold watches, which is the case, and which is not positive.... 

Ok, understood, thanks for the explanation. [nt]

 By: foversta : December 2nd, 2011-16:07
No message body

Thank you so much, Imran. [nt]

 By: amanico : December 2nd, 2011-15:52
No message body

Very interesting feedback Nicolas, thank you.

 By: Mark in Paris : December 3rd, 2011-07:21
I'm not a vintage expert, at all, but I had an "intelectual" interest in looking closely to the event. I must say that I've been somtimes surprised by the results. Anyway, I answered myself that there should be a specific reason I didn't know at that time... 

Thanks to you for sharing your input.

 By: amanico : December 3rd, 2011-08:39
I think there is a lot of food for thought, in the Vintage and the Moderns. Yes, we always think " hey I should have bid on it " once the auction is over... But the truth of gthe moment is the only truth. If you didn't fight, you must have had somùe ... 

Thank you for this post, Nicolas!

 By: blomman Mr Blue : December 3rd, 2011-16:00
Very interesting outcome – a lot of mixed feelings… On one hand I am very happy for JLC making such fantastic outcome on (some of) the vintage pieces. On the other hand – this indicates that it will be even more expensive in the future to hunt these beaut... 

Well, Blomman, I think this auction is an indication rather than a reference.

 By: amanico : December 3rd, 2011-23:00
I doubt every Deep Sea Alarm, Polaris and Reverso will make such a score each time we see one for sale. But this auction clearly showed that Vintage JLCs in general receive some good appreciation, some more than others, but it is the same for every brand.... 

A great debate

 By: Ubik : December 7th, 2011-09:53
As a vintage collector I think this sort of debate is crucial. It's important to share our thoughts about what we feel is happening in the vintage watch world. Most of the vintage auctions from the large houses focus 60-80% and above on Patek and Rolex le... 

About what?

 By: HerrK : December 7th, 2011-12:04
Watches or prices? We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches. And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one? On the question about reflexivity you raised: It would be only natural if there was a feedback loop between t... 

Well, in that case many of us here have to be psychic!

 By: blomman Mr Blue : December 7th, 2011-13:57
Since the original Deep Sea Alarm has been a topic here in the forum for years… Best Blomman

Recollections tend to be deceptive, Blomman!

 By: HerrK : December 8th, 2011-01:22
Do a forum search! Mentioning of the DSA before Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: one handful. Mentioning of the DSA after Nicolas' reviews of the Polaris, JLC Divers and the DSA in 2008: several hundreds. Any further questi... 

I'd love to know the answers to your questions.

 By: Ubik : December 8th, 2011-01:55
" We should not confuse the prices of with the value of watches." Can you tell me, in your opinion, what the difference between the value of a vintage watch is and it's price? " And which criteria have to be met to make a price a "fair" one?" What criteri... 

I thought it to be common practice ...

 By: HerrK : December 8th, 2011-12:26
... not to answer a question by a question. As you will have noticed from my post I do not advocate a neo-classical position. However it is your turn to substantiate and explain your position first. ;-) Christian

Where I come from we were taught to always

 By: Ubik : December 9th, 2011-08:17
answer a question with a question ) In terms of your line about Value and Price, I was of course wrong. That is a statement not a question. The question about the criteria for "fair" price implied, to me at least,, that you had criteria that you considere...