Antiquorum and stolen watches: Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 / 500.

Dec 26, 2015,10:02 AM
 


I am posting this story so that watch enthusiasts and all others may learn 
from my recent, sad experience.


On the 25th of October, 2015, Antiquorum auctioned several watches in Hong 
Kong. Among them was a watch that was stolen from me on the 18th of 
January, 2011:  My Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 / 500, the "Langematik of 
the Shame," pictured here with photo credit to Antiquorum:


 

Here, the link to the auction in question:


www.antiquorum.com  


As you see, Antiquorum auctioned only the watch, without any boxes or 
papers. That's because I still have the original box and official Lange 
papers that are unique to this specific watch Nr 185/500. The thief stole 
only the watch, not the box and papers. I still have those.


It was a widely known and easily discoverable fact that this specific 
Langematik Anniversary Nr 185/500 was stolen. See for yourself. Just type 
"Langematik Anniversary Stolen" in Google, and you will find this link at 
or near the top of the Google search results:

forums.timezone.com

Notice that this link is to a Timezone forum -- a site that is, I think, 
associated with Antiquorum -- and it appears at or near the top of the 
search results.


This information is so easy to find, and such a widely known fact, that 
the winning bidder -- an honest gentleman -- immediately discovered it 
upon receiving the watch. He promptly contacted Antiquorum with this 
information and returned the stolen watch to them. Weeks later, and only 
after the "winner" applied some legal pressure to Antiquorum, did 
Antiquorum begin to process his refund. [I know this because the buyer and 
I communicated directly with each other after all this was done. We met 
each other through a fellow collector who also had knowledge of this 
matter.]


Now, what happened can be summed in the following facts. These are just 
facts and only facts. There are no assumptions, no guesses, no 
subjectivity. I have all the correspondance between myself and Antiquorum, 
and some people here have also witnessed these events unfold as I describe 
them.


On the advice of a friend, I contacted Antiquorum to tell them that I was 
the legal owner of this watch which was stolen from me.


On the 4th of November, 2015, I received an email from Antiquorum that 
said this, in part:


"It saddens me to hear about the theft of your timepieces. TO MOVE THIS 
FORWARD [emphasis added], please do scan all your paperwork regarding the 
watch, including the police report, as well as images of the box and any 
other accessories you may have".


Some comments from my part: I immediately did exactly what Antiquorum 
requested, scanning and sending them on the very next day the papers of my 
Langematik Anniversary, the purchase invoice, the police report, and the 
pictures of the boxes. And I confirmed with Antiquorum that I never 
received any insurance money from the theft of this watch.


"To move this forward", they wrote. I had the naivety to think that it 
would help me to get my watch back. I never thought that doing so would 
only allow Antiquorum to cancel the auction and send the watch back to the 
consignor.


After submitting these scans to Antiquorum, I heard nothing. Then, about 
ten days later, I contacted Antiquorum to inquire if things were going in 
a positive way. Antiquorum answered that for the moment, they had no news 
and I should wait ... Ok.


I then asked them, on the 2d of December, 2015, if there were some news... 
And I received, in a very laconic way, this answer:


"We cancelled the sale of the Langematik Anniversary and RETURNED the 
timepiece to the consignor".


You can imagine that I didn't give up, and after contacting Antiquorum NY, 
I received this answer, on the 17th of December:


"We have consulted our legal counsel in NY and HK how to handle this case. 
Due to the AMBIGUITY OF TITLE [emphasis added], we have been advised to 
return the piece to the consignor."


A comment from my part: Where is this "AMBIGUITY OF TITLE"?...


- Who has the boxes and papers unique to this specific watch Nr 185/500? I 
do.


- Who has the invoice for this watch? I do.


- Who has the police report documenting the theft of this watch (22 
watches were stolen to me on the very same day, by the way, and among 
them, of course, this Langematik Anniversary )? I do.


So where is the "AMBIGUITY OF TITLE" here?


How could the "consignor" possibly justify ownership of this watch in a 
better, more robust way than I did? It is impossible. How can he explain 
that I have all the documents, the box, and the police report about that 
watch -- and that this specific watch Nr 185/500 was documented as stolen 
on the internet, on Timezone and in other places, long before this auction 
happened? In what way can the consigner justify that he bought this watch 
without box or papers and never bothered to inquire or learn that the 
watch was stolen from a simple Google search? Note that this watch was 
registered as stolen with Lange, too.

Was the consignor asked what kind of papers from Lange he could show to 
justify its ownership?


Who does have an ambiguity of ownership, here? The consignor or me?


The answer is evident: Antiquorum's way of dealing with this matter is 
unprofessional and deplorable. They asked me to justify my ownership, to 
prove it, and in the end this just helped them to quickly return the watch 
to the consignor who does not and cannot have better evidence of ownership 
than I do. Antiquorum should have held this watch pending its eventual 
return to me, its rightful owner.

And Antiquorum, a "professional" auction house specializing in watches, 
never even checked to see if there was something on the internet or in 
Lange's records about the possibility that this watch -- a limited edition 
Lange without papers or boxes -- was stolen. This is something the winning 
bidder did immediately, and he is not even a dealer, just a private 
collector.


Bravo.


Remember this when you deal with Antiquorum: Be very careful. And if you 
ever find Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 / 500, you now know the story. It 
is stolen.


Best,


Nicolas


PS: Of course, I kept all the correspondence between myself and 
Antiquorum, I have some witnesses of these exchanged emails, and I still 
have all the original documents for my watch.


This message has been edited by amanico on 2015-12-26 12:23:27






More posts: LangematikLangematik Anniversary

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WOW, I'm very sorry my friend

 
 By: Jocke : December 26th, 2015-10:32
Unfortunately, similar things happening here in Sweden and it does not seem like proffessional traders need to check the origin of things anymore. It has become a frightening development in line with the lucrative second hand market. I really hope you get... 

It's a tricky situation

 
 By: Jocke : December 26th, 2015-12:19
but someone have to be responsible at the company. Maybe Switzerland is easier to communicate with.

In America, You Can Get..

 
 By: elliot55 : December 27th, 2015-17:03
... Your ass locked up for accepting and/or selling stolen property. This is nothing short of criminal behavior on the part of Antiquorum! We will take to the social media airwaves with this story. The response must be severe and unrelenting!

Really? [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-22:05

Really!

 
 By: elliot55 : December 28th, 2015-08:13
It's a very serious problem here and the authorities do not like it one bit. To be sure, Antiquorum has probably broken several U.S. laws related to the acceptance and sale of stolen properly. Like I said, the social media response must be severe and unre... 

Very sad news. I expect you could get the name of the consignor and have some possibilities

 
 By: patrickh : December 26th, 2015-10:40
to get your beloved watch back with Police Authorities collaboration. Good luck Nicolas, Patrickh

I am so sorry to hear that!

 
 By: KMII : December 26th, 2015-10:49
But would that now not require Aniquorum to hand over the details of the cosignor on police request?

Hey Antiquorum: SCREW YOU.

 
 By: MichaelC : December 26th, 2015-10:51
I hope prospective buyers will find this story on google or elsewhere and avoid working with your company. You try to sell stolen property and then do not assist in returning it to the rightful owner?? HORRIBLE. Nicolas, so sorry you have to relive the si... 

Hey Michael C - You Are SPOT ON. Please Keep Up The...

 
 By: elliot55 : December 28th, 2015-13:33
... Social Media Pressure. Antiquorum will pay a hefty price for their obviously criminal behavior. In the end, I believe the answer to what happened to our dear Amanico's property lies with the consignor Antiquorum is protecting. I feel it in my gut. And... 

Sadly not the first time I heard about this...

 
 By: patrick_y : December 26th, 2015-11:08
This upsets me so much to hear this. And incredulously, I've heard this story from another Purist! The people at Antiquorum really are near criminals. They support criminal activity because they didn't want to ruin the relationship with the consignor. The... 

The exact thing has happened in the past...

 
 By: patrick_y : December 27th, 2015-09:07
Another Purist also had a stolen watch, saw it on Antiquorum, informed Antiquorum, and the watch was returned to the consignor. Just so upsetting.

Attention watch thieves: "Send us your stolen watches and we will sell/auction them for you RISK-FREE!"...

 
 By: CR : December 26th, 2015-12:06
The auction house is sending this message. If the stolen watch is successfully auctioned, then (a) the thief receives his money and (b) his identity remains secret. If the auction is interrupted for any reason -- for example, if the watch is discovered to... 

That is why, in France, the crime of receiving stolen goods is more severely punished than the theft itself.

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-12:16
Because receiving stolen goods encourages theft. I totally agree with your analyze, CR. Most of the Criminal Judges, too. Best, Nicolas

Ufortunately, I see this behaviour in business all the time

 
 By: NickO : December 26th, 2015-11:37
We do not live in a world that values "doing the right thing" only a world where we look to minimize our own exposure. The Antiquorum lawyers do not care about you, the Consignor, or the watch. Their sole concern is the welfare of their employer. I am sur... 

Thanks for your input, NickO. Some observations and thoughts. They would have fun if the consignor sued them. He would have to come with stronger evidences than those I have.

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-11:52
Which is just impossible, as I am the victim, here, and I hate to write that. 2/ Admitting that they sometimes receive stolen goods is a fact. The evidence is in the facts I put together. But reacting in an honorable way is much more rewarding for them, a... 

Very sorry to hear this!

 
 By: Anatol : December 26th, 2015-11:51
Nicolas, going through all this for a second time is a real torture! Unfortunately the laws applicable in such cases differ considerably from country to country. And I remember a former owner of a Ferrari Testarossa who could not re-claim his car because ... 

It is partially in the hands of Antiquorum and in those of the " consignor " who now knows

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-11:54
That this watch comes from a huge ( to say the least ) burglary, which was not covered by the insurance... I couldn't wear such a watch anymore, knowing that. Best, Nicolas

very sad... double punishment for you

 
 By: psfparis : December 30th, 2015-05:39
this business goes the wrong way as it is supposed to be "all about trust" i guess you ran an eye and general terms and condition of Antiquorum on HK GTC you can find "Antiquorum warrants that, upon the consummation of the sale of any lot under the terms ... 

An incredible story...

 
 By: dr.kol : December 26th, 2015-12:26
The only way to explain the action of Antiquorum is that the Consignor had a receipt of his purchase. But it is difficult to claim that he would have been Bona Fide. A sad story and I'm very sorry for you. Let's hope this ends well. Best, Kari

Then, the consignor is legitimately in his right to ask a full refund from his seller.

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-12:29
But he cannot compete with me in the ground of ownership... Best, Nicolas

You are 100% right;

 
 By: dr.kol : December 26th, 2015-13:18
no arguments there. Best, Kari

What a total disgrace!

 
 By: Baron - Mr Red : December 26th, 2015-12:47
The auction house should be embarrassed. Ashamed, actually.

Shameful behaviour by Antiquorum...

 
 By: Dave G : December 26th, 2015-12:56
what a painful experience Nico. As noted, their customer base resides in places like this forum and their credibility is lost when we hear horror stories like these. I hope there is some leads through further police action that can happen for you given th... 

I guess not

 
 By: Arie - Mr Orange : December 26th, 2015-15:43
Otherwise he/she/it would have done so by now.... The only thing is for sure: the current holder (not owner) knows without any doubt he/she/it has a stolen good in their hands/safe. Un sellable Personal note to you Nico: this sucks!! I can imagine the ang... 

Absolutely unacceptable!

 
 By: Mr Green : December 26th, 2015-13:41
This is completely disgraceful, shameful and unprofessional from Antiquorum Can hardly believe such conduct from world known auction house As you know better than me you have many points for legal actions against them question is if you have time and mone... 

Nicolas I am sorry to hear about the theft...

 
 By: watercolors : December 26th, 2015-13:52
my take on the situation is as follows. Hong Kong is not a jungle and I am sure Antiquorum contacted the local sheriff's department before returning it to the seller. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you receive your Lange back. All the best E... 

Let's keep fingers crossed, but they never said nor showed me that they...

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-13:56
Sent the watch bak to the consignor at the demand of the sheriff... Best, and thanks for your feedback, my friend. Nicolas

Have you posted about these newest events on TimeZone?

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 26th, 2015-14:02
I would be glad to if you are not a member there.

Done.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 26th, 2015-14:38
Good luck.

Yes, Timezone is a commercial forum

 
 By: NickO : December 26th, 2015-21:52
That accepts money from different site Sponsors (ADs) and other institutions associated with the watch industry. if you make a post criticizing one of their business partners, it will be deleted. As Nicolas pointed out, I believe Timezone has a relationsh... 

Then we shall try to make the story big

 
 By: Luis6 : December 26th, 2015-22:05
on other platforms of social media.

And deleted... ;) [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-23:26

I awoke this morning to an email from CR asking where I posted. It was in the Lange Forum.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 27th, 2015-05:41
I see the post is gone. I think it was still up around 10PM NYC time last night. I also did not know until now that Antiquorum OWNS TZ.

Maybe all Purists that can post on TZ should bombard the Forum with entries about this.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 27th, 2015-05:58
I wouldn't care if I got banned-this was my first post there in 2015.

Agreed.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 27th, 2015-07:47
Nicolas, maybe you have already stated this somewhere within this massive thread: did you report the theft to Lange back in 2011? Or any time since up to this past summer? I think you know where I'm going with this. If a "reputable" auction house was pres... 

I saw it it was there for maybe 2 hours or so

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-06:34
no responses LOL Cheers

I reread your original post and you state you informed Lange that the watch was stolen.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 27th, 2015-11:41
I believe your position is strengthened vis a vis Antiquorum: they are presented with an expensive, MODERN watch, with no box or papers; and they did nothing to verify ownership.

What a story, and sorry for your loss...

 
 By: Raymond_S : December 26th, 2015-14:04
maybe if it shows up again we can collectively bid it, buy it and request to meet, chat with the mysterious "owner", see if there are any more interesting pieces he/she "collects". Can you inform all other auction houses to let them know? Rgds Raymond

Which horror mess

 
 By: ninolitaliano : December 26th, 2015-14:12
If the sender is honest, he will contact you and so the investigators will can perhaps the track. Whith you, nino

It is a real scandal ...

 
 By: Chrisparet : December 26th, 2015-14:41
I do hope you will recover your watch Nicolas I think we cannot trust auctionners ...I have read lot of problems with fakes , watches serviced but out of order and so on...experts selling through auctionners... Cheers Christian

I feel your pain Nico

 
 By: NT931 : December 26th, 2015-20:39
And those AQ auctioneers are totally without conscience nor scruples. I made a little picture in support of you , paraphrasing one of my favourite comedians, Russell Peters. Shame on you Antiquorum! This message has been edited by NT931 on 2015-12-26 20:4...  

I had a single experience with AQ (their HK & NY branches)

 
 By: NT931 : December 27th, 2015-00:17
... and it wasn't fun either. Almost got hit by some extra charges which they didn't mention, and had lackadaisical customer support when I emailed. To top it all off, they Fedexed to the WRONG address. I would almost have lost the watch if not for an hon... 

Well said Luis!

 
 By: NT931 : January 1st, 2016-23:49
The thread you started over at WUS has also garnered several new AQ horror stories. If we hyperlink all the horror stories across different watch fora, hopefully potential AQ customers will see these stories and walk away.

I too have a negative experience with AQ as a buyer(still ongoing)

 
 By: YHWH : January 4th, 2016-21:54
Just signed up to share my own story here. Similar experience here, basically, they're just being unenthusiastic and has always been showing a lack of interest in customer support when it comes to dealing with the mess they created. Coming from my experie... 

Exactement!

 
 By: elliot55 : December 28th, 2015-13:57
Those bastardos had a chance to show the class we all believed they had by returning your property. And yet, they chose another path. Shameful. - Scott

They do have a Facebook page ;-)

 
 By: bimbeano : December 28th, 2015-14:57
You can make comments ;-)

What can I say? :))) [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 28th, 2015-15:01

I already asked ..

 
 By: bimbeano : December 28th, 2015-15:13
.. if by any coincidence they had a Langematik for sale ... and posted your complete thread in their 'anouncements' .. somebody else did so as well. Have you googled Antiquorum / payments / problems ? Heard that before, but they even wait months and month... 

Yes ... but ...

 
 By: bimbeano : December 28th, 2015-15:20
... if the buyer doesn't pay within let's say 2 weeks (if i bid on something i'll make sure i have the cash ready) .... they cancel the deal and send the watch back to the owner ... hmmm, the rightful owner ;-) . I've read about people (and heard from a U... 

Nico- Sorry to hear this sad story.

 
 By: descartes1 : December 26th, 2015-14:46
You are such a gentleman that it pains me that you had your watches stolen, and now this. If I may add some perspective from U.S. law, I am sorry to say that there are scenarios under which the "consignor" could have good title to the watch, even though i... 

It is the same system in France. Recel ( possession of stolen goods ) depends on some criterias

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-15:00
Which are basically the same than those you mentioned, ie the seller ( professional, or not professional ) and the price. I had zero informations on these criterions from Antiquorum in their different emails and answers, not the least justification. So, a... 

Agreed.

 
 By: descartes1 : December 26th, 2015-15:11
Proving BFP status is not easy and the seller bears the burden of proof. Also, if the seller did buy from a dealer, state law usually has strict requirements which dealers must abide by to ensure they are not selling stolen goods. If the dealer fails to d... 

Regarding the "reasonable expectation of clear title" concept under the UCC...

 
 By: CR : December 26th, 2015-20:14
If a modern, high-end watch is being sold without box or papers, and if a simple internet search of the limited edition or serial number of that watch immediately would have revealed its stolen status, and if a purchaser of said watch (dealer or private i... 

You posted your census on the 22 May 2015, and clearly announced that the Nr 28 and 185 are stolen. So, Antiquorum could have known that, indeed.

 
 By: amanico : December 26th, 2015-23:45
As for the consignor, I would be interested in knowing when he bought it, as you can imagine... Best, Nicolas

And they could have, and should have, contacted Lange, which company was armed with a claim of theft from 2011.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 27th, 2015-13:50
I think this wins the argument for Nico. Simple due diligence.

The outcome of the dealing with this auction house is painful...

 
 By: blomman Mr Blue : December 26th, 2015-14:50
Truly sorry, my friend. Best Blomman

It is outrageous.

 
 By: Mark in Paris : December 26th, 2015-15:27
I know that you're already doing what has to be done and I can't give you wiser advice, especially knowing that dealing with such matters must really not be something "pleasant" for you. All I hope is that your watch (via this thread) becomes the most pop... 

I hope everybody knows, now, that the Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 is stolen. So it cannot be sold. And to serviced by Lange.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-00:02
Antiquorum could have gained something in terms of image, indeed, but it seems they don't care about that. Best, Mark. Nicolas

Very sorry to hear this story Nicolas...............

 
 By: TonyR : December 26th, 2015-16:07
It would be a highly unlikely event for me to ever buy or sell watches at Antiquroum, this story just re-confirms my feeling. Years ago a friend of mine bought two watches there at an auction. I know they recommend a full service on every single watch the... 

I'm speechless. I've never been in any kind of auction, but the story is just horrifying.

 
 By: Luis6 : December 26th, 2015-16:08
I feel sorry for you, Nicolas. All I can do is standing by you and hope you can win the legal battle against Antiquorum. Being a premiere auction house, the way they handle this matter is just so unprofessional and unacceptable.

22 watches were stolen to you

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : December 26th, 2015-16:15
Did you check the past auctions? Did the thief (or thieves) steal other LE? I think this could be a good clue to find out what happened to you. We, as collectors and aficionados, should follow an ethical code and avoid stolen watches...but we are not the ... 

Yes, some other LE's were stolen such as the Ulysse Nardin Monopusher 175th Anniversary WG Nr 28 / 175...

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-00:17
My two Tribute to Polaris ( PRT / 65 for the 1965 Edition, Nr 7 for the 1968 Edition ), the Vacheron Constantin Les Historiques Chronograph platinum salmon dial ( not a LE but a limited production ), Panerai Pre Vendome Logo Nr 15, Mare Nostrum 301/ A Nr ... 

Nicolas, as all posts stay in internet in this web site, I suggest

 
 By: patrickh : December 27th, 2015-02:19
you to post 1 specific post for each one of your stolen watches, with ref in the title and a photo (just indicating your are always owner of all papers and boxes) On IWC, Panerai, JLC and VC fora. and also add the police declaration with date (paper?) So ... 

Could be helpful to share them on other fora

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : December 27th, 2015-02:33
I' ve asked him the permit to share his list.

My idea was

 
 By: patrickh : December 27th, 2015-02:42
to post on each individual WatchProSite forum: IWC, Panerai, IWC, JLC 1 individual post by stolen watch with a number and a photo. So at each search on internet, everyone could be informed.... Patrickh

Will think about it... [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-03:34

Done, my friend. Thanks. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-03:33

I am no expert, but is not handling stolen goods a crime?

 
 By: Miranda : December 26th, 2015-16:27
forget sueing, report to police, and let them investigate

It's worth looking into whether Antiquorum violated a local law by handling, and then disposing of property reported to be stolen, as evidenced by a police report and other credible proof.

 
 By: descartes1 : December 26th, 2015-18:57
Hong Kong law may apply but the choice of law and jurisdiction issues are complex. If governing law can be identified perhaps pressure can be brought on Antiuorum and ultimately the consignor. Getting to the consignor could be helpful because he may have ... 

I THINK this would be New York law in this case...

 
 By: CR : December 26th, 2015-20:19
The buyer, who is in the US, returned the watch to Antiquorum's New York office, and the proof of ownership/theft that Nico provided to Antiquorum was also sent directly to the NY office.

Far far from being expert but

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-00:43
can Interpol do something?

Watch stolen in France

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-06:39
Sold in HK by company that have HQ in Swiss and NY Sound like international crime to me

Why not take this info to their FB page and on Twitter?

 
 By: Arie - Mr Orange : December 26th, 2015-16:30
power of social media

Now is better thime than never my friend

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-06:44
I must say that Arie has strong point here Putting this post on FB & Twitter of AQ for no matter how short time would have HUGE impact Trust me 100X more people in couple of hours will see it than here in week Not to compare but I was nearly screwed by on... 

Apparently fellow forum members placed a copy/link of this thread on AQ Facebook page

 
 By: Arie - Mr Orange : December 29th, 2015-05:41
As you can see by the number of views. This is going to hurt them. Righteously so. And perhaps it is going to help you persuade them to do the right thing...

Well....it's gong viral alright :-)

 
 By: Arie - Mr Orange : December 30th, 2015-13:35
(from Facebook) ...  

I would fight this to the end Nicolas!

 
 By: fernando : December 26th, 2015-17:59
Even if you have lost favour with the watch, it's the right thing to do and a matter of principle. You can do whatever you want with your watch after regaining rightful possession. You have all of us here to back you up if need be. I am not a lawyer but I... 

Unbelievable Nico!

 
 By: jrwong23 : December 26th, 2015-20:03
This is outrageous! How can an auction house like AQ not understand the law and rules of engagements in the watch trade?! I have informed my collector friends and some of them started sharing your story on their social media accounts. Let\'s fight this to... 

I like your line of thinking Robin

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-00:49
This is war indeed We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

You have many supporters Nico

 
 By: jrwong23 : December 27th, 2015-19:31
The Resistance armies are formed and fighting the war now Cheers Robin

Yes Damjan!

 
 By: jrwong23 : December 27th, 2015-19:30
The war has started!! Many PuristS have joined the Resistance against the Dark Side. Check out various Facebook and Instagram pages! The banner is raised! The flags are flown! Join the Resistance! Cheers Robin

Great post and attitute Sir

 
 By: cisco : December 28th, 2015-01:09
Way to go Cheers François

So so wrong!!!! Unacceptable!

 
 By: exigesc : December 26th, 2015-22:45
What is wrong with these people from Antiquorum auction??!!!! These losers just wanted to get rid of the watch as soon as possible & not wanting to have anything to do with it whatsoever!! The worse part was that they were using the document from the orig... 

Yes the watch was auctioned in HK, on the 25th of October, this year. I have my case on file since January 2011, at the Paris Police.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-04:54
I don't want to give up, but I may need a contact at HK. And to know if the law is the same there, than in the US or in France where the criterions are identical. Is this different in HK, I don't know. Best, and thank you so much for your support. Nicolas... 

Opinion from HK police!

 
 By: exigesc : January 1st, 2016-10:18
Hi Nicolas! Happy New Year! Wish 2016 will be a wonderful year for you & your family! some of this past issue will get resolve soon!!! I went to the HK police & explained your situation. Here is what they said: 1.) They think the auction house should not ... 

Exigesc, thank you so much for your time and efforts.

 
 By: amanico : January 1st, 2016-10:53
1/ Yes, Antiquorum should have waited for an official legal advice ( police or court of justice ), and THAT is a big mistake. 2/ There is a proof of criminal act, since I have a police report ( parisian police ) about a BURGLARY, which is a crime. 3/ To k... 

Terrible

 
 By: damien : December 26th, 2015-22:54
Horrific that you have to relive your loss again when it appears AQ was just going to focus only on its relationship with the consignor. Nothing at all came out of your provision of the relevant papers to them. Stupid, asinine request (sorry but cant thin... 

I just posted it on watchuseek.

 
 By: Luis6 : December 26th, 2015-23:58
Hope it won't be removed.

Slow payment by AQ seems to be a consistent complaint

 
 By: NT931 : December 27th, 2015-00:40
also see this thread on another forum.

Frightening. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-00:47

Antiquorum organiser of the auction

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : December 27th, 2015-01:14
.......acts as an agent only and is not liable for any default(s) of purchaser(s) and/or vendor(s). Neither Antiquorum acting as agent only nor the vendor accept any responsibility whatsoever for any defect or deterioration of any lot nor for any precisio... 

The facts are clear, at least from my side. From Aq side, I just have a statement, they didn't show me any evidence.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-01:49
I wanted to stay in the factual ground. Only in the factual ground. As said, one of my stolen watches has reappeared on the market, has been auctioned by Aq, the auction on that watch was cancelled after Aq was informed by the winning bidder that the watc... 

That type of "logic" always escaped me.....

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-07:02
we are selling your watch that was stolen from you and you have proofs that was yours and stolen but don't write against us cos we will sue you!!!??? That type of law and logic is why this world looks like it looks In short justice is on your side but law... 

better a ship than a lion

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : December 27th, 2015-07:28
AQ returned the watch to the consignor, is not their duty to pursue him. It's called LAW, not logic or even justice. I'm not saying is right, this is a matter for POLICE (and lawyers). If there is no global database for stolen watches, probably it's becau... 

I don't like that policy I like....

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-07:49
Seriously You don't ask I don't say is something that one would not expect from "Antiquorum, The World's Premier Auctioneers of Modern and Vintage Timepieces, is proud of our fine reputation and the industry knowledge of our internationally recognized sta... 

Agree...

 
 By: piccolochimico (aka dsgalaxy1) : December 27th, 2015-08:00
But even if we would have expected a different behaviour, right now this is the sad truth. AQ could change his mind and try to fix this issue. As i type above, this is just the iceberg top, if we think that this lange is 1/22 of stolen watches.

What a horror story, Nico! [nt]

 
 By: sery.vlk : December 27th, 2015-01:38
You are right saying that you feel burglared twice. Sadly enough, the second time by a company engaged in a business we collectors love so much. And the feeling of frustration when you could only witness their course of actions, without a chance to interf... 

Incredible!

 
 By: Speedie74 aka Mr. Torquise : December 27th, 2015-01:54
If I were you, I would report about the case at the police, where you originally made the file! And I would also contact with a local lawyer colleauge from Hong-Kong, what is the local law in this issue. Anyway, the situation is not so simple: there could... 

He has to prove his bona fide. I don't even know if he is of bona fide.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-03:21
Not a simple matter, I agree, BUT... My position is not enviable... Best, Nicolas

Feeling for you

 
 By: dedestexhes : December 27th, 2015-01:58
It would be extremely difficult to keep my calm in such a situation! Hope everything ends well. br, Dirk

Incredible

 
 By: keks : December 27th, 2015-02:10
Stunned at reading how this is unfolding. Lack of communication and them making decision to return to consignor is flat out disgusting. Shows they are in it for a quick dollar and do not see how they are hurting themselves. Makes me want to draw blood. I ... 

why not a petition?

 
 By: ninolitaliano : December 27th, 2015-03:08
He would be maybe sensible to make a petition in Antiquorum, by saying that we shall not participate anymore in their auctions, as long as this affair will not be solved?

Glad you like it as I

 
 By: keks : December 27th, 2015-06:23
Would not imagine this to be very hard to execute. Lot of these publications have dedicated writers on watches and jewelry and often cover the large auction offerings. This is such an obvious story that getting it out there should make auction houses pay ... 

It's up to you decide on the strategy to be adopted, my friend,

 
 By: ninolitaliano : December 30th, 2015-05:08
we are in starting block

Hi Nicolas, very sad to read of this discovery of your stolen watch which did not turn out well this far. Media is ...

 
 By: GLau : December 27th, 2015-11:24
very powerful, and in addition to Kek\'s suggestions on FT, Bloomberg , etc, I would also propose you to contact SCMP (South China Morning Post which is a powerful local English newspaper in Hong Kong) and Cai Jing magazine , etc,. in China because their ... 

Hello, Gordon. First of all, thanks for your help, my friend.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-11:32
Interesting idea, but how would it work? What would be the text? I don't see very well how it could work. Best, Nicolas

Hi Nicolas, I would suggest getting FT (it has a Saturday section on "how to spend it" which always talks about watches, and / or Bloomberg + Wall Street Journal to write about...

 
 By: GLau : December 27th, 2015-20:14
"how to protect your prized watch collection from blatant theft", a catchy title to attract lots of attention. With one or more of these global newspapers printing an article, SCMP will likely pick it up in Hong Kong because your incidence happened in Hon... 

Bloomberg ran this a few months ago...

 
 By: keks : December 28th, 2015-06:30
www.bloomberg.com - I would send the author, Stephen Pulvirent, a note and describe what happened and suggest he follows up on the article "Fifteen Watches With Bragging Rights From Antiquorum's Fall Auction" with a story called something like "St... 

In that case it was hard to see that this Langematik Anniversary Nr 185 / 500 was stolen, indeed.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-04:29
A simple and quick google search et voilà... Hard to understand, harder to accept. Best, Nicolas.

It STINKS.........

 
 By: Sandgroper : December 27th, 2015-03:41
I am dumbfounded at Antiquorum's attitude. This is not a matter of simple "misjudgement", in my opinion it is a flagrant case of dishonesty. To receive and accept stolen goods is a very serious crime in the majority of countries. It is difficult to believ... 

In one way or another it will.....

 
 By: Sandgroper : December 28th, 2015-14:47
...it always does! The Universe works in mysterious ways. I am not Madame Soleil but I can feel clearly that some sort of "understanding" will be forthcoming. Very few creatures would indulge or blossom living in the darkness of a toilet hole and generall... 

LOL Francois...I always loved your way with words

 
 By: Mr Green : December 27th, 2015-06:55
All the best in 2016 to you and all yours D

Hvala Damjan.

 
 By: Sandgroper : December 28th, 2015-15:30
Sretna Nova godina to you and yours dear Damjan. Jedan zagrljaj Francois

Ahhh you guys from Down there...

 
 By: Mr Green : December 28th, 2015-23:50
you all speak Croatian Yours hoping to meet in 2016 D

:))) [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 28th, 2015-23:56

Ahaha! Only when I wear a cravate;)

 
 By: Sandgroper : December 29th, 2015-10:05
Yes, we must meet in 2016! Cheers dear Damjan, Francois

Sad news in a way....But on the other hand

 
 By: beejo : December 27th, 2015-04:12
I have a feeling that you are getting a step closer to your beloved watch,I hope the auction house to get what they deserve as well..... I will make sure to spread the word in my social circle Best, Ahmed

Incredible!

 
 By: samwan : December 27th, 2015-04:27
And totally unacceptable of Antiquorum! Just a thought Nico - did you try referring the case to the Police (with whom you filed the stolen report) so that they can go after Antiquorum (instead of you)? Since the watch is part of the loot, the consignor an... 

wish you all the best to resolve this matter....That will give you your beloved watch back

 
 By: moc : December 27th, 2015-04:36
and restore some faith.... Don t let it go Nico... Mo

Absolutely appalling....

 
 By: Rhyzen : December 27th, 2015-05:01
.... The way Antiquorum handled this is at best unprofessional, at worst outright criminal. We are definitely behind you on this. I personally will not participate in any of their auctions till there is a satisfactory outcome from this fiasco. Please keep... 

Simply APPALLING....

 
 By: KIH : December 27th, 2015-06:56
... as I had my TWO Lange stolen, I may have to deal with these situations..... Antiquorum has been my least favorite auction house - based on experience dealing with them, even when I won.... Sorry to hear that and I hope my Lange be not auctioned at Aut... 

Shocked but not entirely surprised

 
 By: ianny : December 27th, 2015-08:04
I've heard or read one too many dodgy stories about AQ. These guys are glorified crooks. For what it's worth: If I am not wrong, HK laws and legal system are similar to Singapore's (a former British colony and a member of the Commonwealth). Singapore has ... 

Terrible news my friend.

 
 By: KCKL : December 27th, 2015-08:18
The watch may have gone through many layers before reaching Antiquorum. It\'s terrible to know how they handled the situation through asking for real ownership evidence of the watch and does nothing although realising they are auctioning a stolen timepiec... 

While I'm not well-versed with the legalities behind this,

 
 By: skyeriding : December 27th, 2015-08:49
I sincerely hope this gets sorted out. Seems like daylight robbery to me, and as stated - "too easy" for them just to get away with this. Regards, skyeriding

We share the same hope. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-13:26

Appalled to read of such conduct.

 
 By: Richard N : December 27th, 2015-08:53
I do hope that this turns out well eventually. These guys seems to be no different from any other crook, only that they hide behind a lot of legal fine print designed to allow them to make the most money out of dubious trades. I\'ll be sure to share this ... 

Case precedent

 
 By: descartes1 : December 27th, 2015-09:10
Nico, here is a citation to a NY case where Christies was enjoined from transferring an item whose title was in dispute. Of course, it\'s possible that HK or Swiss law may apply,but there is an argument that NY law could apply, and if so, Antiquorum shou... 

The good news is that it seems that the HK and SG law go in the same direction than the US and the French system.

 
 By: amanico : December 27th, 2015-14:23
To sum it, in case of conflict of title, the " victim owner " is the one who has to get the watch back. Thanks for your helpful informations, Descartes. Best, Nicolas

It is a pure scandal.

 
 By: foversta : December 27th, 2015-12:24
And this kind of behaviour explains why the fame of Antiquorum is quickly fading. When you lose the trust from the collectors, it is the beginning of the end. Let's hope that you will get a positive outcome but things will be complicated. The most disappo... 

So Sorry, Nicolas. But here's another thought...Post this thread on Patek & Rolex Forums!

 
 By: stevet : December 27th, 2015-12:31
This thread needs to get posted on the Patek forum. Let's hit AQ where it hurts. Get it on the Patek forum and the Rolex forum. Those are the brands AQ really sells a lot of. Get it on multiple sites...the more good people that hear of this tragedy will v... 

Hoping I was of some help...

 
 By: stevet : December 28th, 2015-08:14
I posted the link to your original post on the Purists' Patek and Rolex forums. The number of viewings nearly doubled after I did that... I'm sure there are other watch community forums besides TZ and Purists. I'd like to get this posted elsewhere, too. M... 

Bright spot?

 
 By: Park : December 27th, 2015-13:54
Nicolas, The only bright spot I can find in this entire sordid story is that someone at Antiquorum was stupid enough to do this to one of the watch world's leading opinion makers! If they have any business sense whatsoever the CEO will fly to Paris to pre... 

So confounding and maddening

 
 By: colton_d : December 27th, 2015-14:17
What an awful event to go through not once; but twice! I will refrain from restating what has already been said Nicolas, however I will follow in Robin's steps and take this fight to Twitter and IG. AQ shall feel the wrath of their shady dealings. Hopeful... 

The best next step seems to be to make a police report in Hong Kong?

 
 By: Ruffian : December 27th, 2015-15:42
And let them get to the bottom of it. I usually assume the best of people until proven otherwise. In other words, I'm assuming Antiquorum and the consigner did what they did in good faith, not knowing it was stolen. If so, once the police investigate, the... 

This is terrible! So AQ while knowingly in possession of stolen property

 
 By: watchthatman : December 27th, 2015-16:13
hands the watch back to the party that gave it to them, rather than giving it to its legal owner, or holding it until it's sorted out in a legal arena. And upon receipt of everything they asked for to prove that it is your stolen watch, they declare "ambi... 

If there's any positive outcome here, Nicolas.....

 
 By: NickO : December 27th, 2015-17:57
I've never seen any thread on WatchProSite get 5,000 views in one day. Antiquorum may be acting like a$$holes, but you have A LOT of friends here! Salute! NickO

My friend I hate that you were robbed twice!

 
 By: reintitan : December 27th, 2015-18:40
I would "lawyer up" as they say in the US and sue these guys to get your rightful property back. I would choose which ever country they have operations in and has the toughest laws on receiving stolen merchandise and sue them there.

Nicolas, I am so upset to hear this.

 
 By: CaliforniaJed : December 27th, 2015-19:48
Please let me know (by PM or email) if I can do anything to help with this in the U.S. Best, CaliforniaJed

Nicolas, if you had an insurance company which covers (even partially)

 
 By: patrickh : December 28th, 2015-00:20
your "precious watches", maybe they could be of some help regarding AQ answers given to you? What do you think about this option? I cross fingers for you and for a happy come back of your Anniversary Lange and all the others.... Patrickh

My insurance company... I prefer to keep the silence, to stay polite.

 
 By: amanico : December 28th, 2015-01:06
They didn't cover me because the door was not broken... Best, Nicolas

I can't believe it, it's beyond cynism.

 
 By: cisco : December 28th, 2015-01:07
Hope friendship in southeast Asia and law will help here to find a solution. I wish you courage and hardcore determination Nicolas best François

Thank you, Fx. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : December 28th, 2015-01:49

Done

 
 By: foversta : December 28th, 2015-09:31
Fx ...  

Oh my god, I'm so sorry to read this Nicolas!

 
 By: sidneyc : December 28th, 2015-03:18
This is one of the most horrible stories I've heard. Shame, Antiquorum, shame!! How is it even possible that they could return STOLEN GOODS to the consignor, and not to the rightful owner????? It's absolutely unacceptable and unthinkable. I think they hav... 

AQ Scumbags

 
 By: doublesix : December 28th, 2015-05:36
Boycott AQ and Timezone. They are all scumbags. AQ should have at least reported this to the police that they were in possession of stolen goods. This whole story makes me disgusted as I had heard over the years that AQ was sketchy from several collectors... 

appalled to hear this

 
 By: donizetti : December 28th, 2015-06:24
I hope that since you are a lawyer and famous in the watch world you will make them regret that unacceptable behavior. I certainly won't buy from them after that. Andreas

Sorry to hear this Nicolas : (

 
 By: AnthonyTsai : December 28th, 2015-10:56
I hope you're able to get this watch back! -AT

So sorry

 
 By: nice2guy : December 28th, 2015-12:54
So sorry to hear this story. Certainly a huge response here and Antiquorum would have to be deaf not to hear this.

I have not much to add but anger toward the auction house and sadness for a fellow Purist.

 
 By: ocwatching : December 28th, 2015-13:01
this is an amazing ordeal..I hope you are above to recover what is rightfully yours...

WHAT ABOUT THE POLICE?

 
 By: G99 : December 28th, 2015-14:15
i know my faith in the police is biased, but there must be someway they can get a warrant to force antiquorum to divulge the sellers details and get the bastard and of course get you your watch back. i wish you the best of luck, i personally wouldnt use a... 

I first have to inform the french police which has the case in their hand. Then, finding a

 
 By: amanico : December 28th, 2015-14:24
Local solution, indeed. Thanks Graham. Good to hear from you, my friend. Best, Nicolas

???

 
 By: Erik Nilsen : December 28th, 2015-14:31
This is insane. There must be someone who is liable for this insanity. Best og Luck getting Your timepeice back, and in the meantime keep up the pressure.

Shocking news Nico!

 
 By: andrewluff : December 28th, 2015-14:43
And really pleased that the buyer did the right thing when he found out it was stolen. It all seems to be weighted on Antiquorums shoulders for doing the wrong thing... why on earth send it back to the seller? I don't think they should have sent it straig... 

Shocking news, but I am not surprised by Antiquorum/Timezone...

 
 By: mrsnak : December 28th, 2015-15:07
I remember when this and other watches were stolen from you. Unfortunately, there are others factors at work with that group that led them to disregard your undeniable proof. The seller is probably well-connected with the owners, and they don't want to lo... 

Sad sad story

 
 By: hans_jorgen_1968 : December 28th, 2015-17:10
It is a more than sad story for you my friend And looking at all the replies, there is not much to add. I dearly hope that Antiquorum gets their act together, and get the police involved to do the right thing for once. To ensure that you get the watch bac... 

I'm really sad to hear...

 
 By: i_am_Sam : December 28th, 2015-17:41
How AQ treat you with this issue .. That\'s very unprofessional of them to do so. I can only hope that the consignor would do the right thing to you. I will also share this issue to my circle of friends so that they will be aware of this issue and the unp... 

So sorry.....

 
 By: sc16 : December 28th, 2015-23:42
Hi Nicolas, I am terribly sorry to read what has happened and moreover that you were not able to retrieve your watch back. It is the nightmare of every watch lover/ collector. It makes you think what would have been the appropriate way to act once one dis... 

The winning bidder, I was in contact with him AFTER he refused the watch.

 
 By: amanico : December 29th, 2015-22:48
He did the right thing, refusing a stolen watch. He would have kept the watch, it would not have been good for him. While it would have been good for me, indeed. As he is a gentleman. But he would have been in trouble with Antiquorum. Or Antiquorum would ... 

By telling your story,

 
 By: sc16 : December 30th, 2015-18:24
this at least provides us some insight how to possibly act the next time someone would come across such a situation, as I know now much better how to respond. This is an extremely added value of the community… to not only show your pieces, but to share ex... 

100% with you

 
 By: ztirual : December 29th, 2015-07:10
Shame on Aq for not doing what a professional auction house ought to have done 1/ enquiring about this particular watch at AL&S and on the internet 2/ returning the watch to the consignor in a hurry when it knew that the watch had been stolen from you I h... 

Extremely sad to read this , Nicolas

 
 By: nitediver : December 29th, 2015-07:52
I think you mentioned in another post that some watches were stolen, but I wasn\'t aware of the extent of robbery. On top of this , the experience of your watch showing up on an auction and the very disappointing behaviour of Antiquorum. At least they cou... 

What about the consignee?

 
 By: rdenney : December 29th, 2015-14:48
It seems to me, applying logic as only a non-lawyer might, that the consignee has now been legally informed that the watch's provenance has been undermined. Having received notice of that, he has two options: Try to resolve it, or try to hide it. If he ig... 

The Bona Fide is examined during the purchase. Now, if the consignor sells the stolen watch, that's another story.

 
 By: amanico : December 30th, 2015-13:23
The new buyer couldn't ignore the illegitimate origin of the watch. So the consignor is stuck with this watch. He cannot sell it, he cannot send it for a service to Lange, he just can keep it with him. IF he is of bona fide... What I curiously still don't... 

I am actually surprised

 
 By: sc16 : December 30th, 2015-18:32
that the current owner did not come forward yet… Perhaps the feeling of losing his money, besides the watch, is weighing very heavily and therefore still contemplating…. However, I can imagine this is insured, but then again, I don’t know whether the insu... 

I misused the word "consignee"...

 
 By: rdenney : December 31st, 2015-07:43
and I meant "consignor"--the current owner who sent the watch to Antiquorum to be sold. I did not mean Antiquorum's buyer who researched it, notified you, and then returned it to Antiquorum based on what he learned--he is blameless. And I did not mean Ant... 

Thanks for your thought-provoking post...

 
 By: CR : December 31st, 2015-09:00
It's helpful to continue to think about the current possessor's position. I think there should be two foci. One is the one you describe -- on the current possessor. It would be wrong for that current possessor to hold the watch silently or to try to sell ... 

Agreed on your analyze, CR. The watch is " dead " for the consignor, now. And Aq did it wrong when they played the role of Judge.

 
 By: amanico : December 31st, 2015-09:06
There is one Langematik Anniversary for sale. This would be a compensation, I will send them my box and papers. The other solution I would welcome is to receive my watch... Best, Nicolas.

Interpol

 
 By: Elias : December 29th, 2015-15:59
Go to your local police department and file chargers against them. As the are in a foreight country I suppose that this will be taken to Interpol who will inform the Honk Kong police about the matter.

What a nightmare! :-(

 
 By: heartbreaker : December 30th, 2015-05:34
Dear Nicolas, First of all, I want to express my deepest solidarity. I can imagine how much agonizing all of these very sad facts are for you. I'm sure you'll try in every way to promote an international criminal investigation, since the facts you've repo... 

All too common

 
 By: hashluck : December 30th, 2015-07:23
I deal a fair bit in antiques and this sort of thing is rather common in that trade and at auction (as Mark alludes to in one post above about a certain auction house). One does what due diligence one can but as a buyer one generally feels there is a leve... 

Word is spreading.

 
 By: DruidPadj : December 30th, 2015-18:52
This has become a topic on Watchuseek and IWL Fora. It has also surfaced on TZ-UK, which I guess is separate from Timezone; the British participants seem quite critical of Antiquorum. Finally, when you google "stolen langematik anniversary watch" my post ... 

FYI

 
 By: DruidPadj : January 3rd, 2016-04:48
I've written to the New York Times and Watchtime Magazine. Should I hear anything I'll let you know. Also, at the suggestion of our friend cee are I registered for Watchnet but my post never got aired-and I've been permanently banned from the Forum! Can y... 

outrageous

 
 By: Seeks : December 30th, 2015-20:20
dear nico, sorry to hear about this case. this is just simply outrageous ! a good citizen would just hand it over to a neutral party (eg police) to mediate until the case be resolved for the new year, I wish that the watch will find its way back to your h... 

the best of luck!

 
 By: Giuseppe : January 2nd, 2016-10:21
hey sir... really sorry for what happened to you... pretty sure you can somehow sue antiquorum for this as possession and even storing stolen items knowingly (you got proof that they did after the buyer contacted them) is a crime... i read a bit about tha... 

Let me put it this way !

 
 By: Patrick Belgium : January 2nd, 2016-10:58
maybe be can all use it as a banner ...  

I am outraged!

 
 By: bjacknot : January 3rd, 2016-17:28
This could have been me when I bought a UN Trilogy set through Antiquorum! I did have Antiquorum send the watches directly to UN for service, but what a nightmare that I trusted an auction house that neglects to verify ownership!

Distressing!

 
 By: PhilippeTheSaint : January 4th, 2016-09:49
Distressing! I find this sad affair. Nicolas receive my support.

Thanks for the kind words, Philippe. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : January 7th, 2016-00:00
No message body

Antiquorum ...... SHAME ON YOU !!!

 
 By: Bruno.M1 : January 4th, 2016-10:12
Good to know I hope you'll get her back one day As for that action site ..... this is VERY bad publicity

Very disappointed

 
 By: halkcb : January 6th, 2016-23:31
by antiquorum's shoddy and totally irresponsible response to your situation. Just happened to read this posting and my sadness and disgust that you have to repeat your anguish at losing this watch again! Now that the holidays are over,i hope that things w... 

Very sorry to hear this ...

 
 By: wso : January 8th, 2016-13:51
Just came across this post. I really feel for you and I can totally understand. Hope you will have your watch back soon. I have heard other unethical stories about Antiquorum in the board room. This is another level when they actually sell stolen goods. I... 

The "good" news is

 
 By: cyrilabcw : January 9th, 2016-16:26
That your watch is back on stage! Social media pressure + finding the best way to let them understand you will not give up are key if I may. What about their credibility if such a story was ever reported on a larger scale. My best wishes for 2016...keep u... 

off topic but .... this is what happens if ...

 
 By: Bruno.M1 : January 13th, 2016-08:25
you ask a question concerning this on Timezone Unbelievable ... I am more than 15 years on that website I posted a few K posts and suddenly ....without any private message, nor warning or whatsoever I even still don't understand what I did wrong Some of t...  

You are not alone, Bruno.

 
 By: DruidPadj : January 13th, 2016-15:38
I joined Watchnet to post about this horrific situation. My post did not see the light of day. And I was permanently banned from posting for my "prior actions".

Did the police contact them?

 
 By: berceuse : January 17th, 2016-05:22
My friend said that the auction house should cooperate with the police, such as providing the information who sent the watch to auction. Since you\'ve reported to the police when the watch was stolen, here is the closest clue that we\'ve ever had. Hope yo... 

I have to contact the police who had my file, again. I called them a week ago.

 
 By: amanico : January 17th, 2016-06:20
We'll see... Thanks, my friend. Best, Nicolas

Good luck! [nt]

 
 By: berceuse : January 17th, 2016-06:22

Expectations

 
 By: Nutellabear : January 18th, 2016-09:14
Sorry, I read this post earlier and said I must respond but then the holidays happened. But I ran across mention of the Antiquorum issue again and it reminded me. First, insofar as Timezone is concerned don\'t feel bad dropping off that list. The directio... 

Welcome! Interesting choice of first post after being registered here for so long. A few questions/comments...

 
 By: CR : January 18th, 2016-11:48
Questions .... Please elaborate on your statement, "The best course of action for Antiquorum was indeed to back entirely out of the situation." Specifically, what criteria are you using to determine "best"? And how do you conclude that Antiquorum's chosen... 

Valid Points

 
 By: Nutellabear : January 26th, 2016-09:48
You brought up some valid points and some facts of which I was not aware. I agree that Antiquorum's actions appear very suspect if not outright unethical. I do maintain two two things however. First that this was an instance with internationsl complicatio... 

Actually it IS unexpected that Antiquorum chose the "expedient" course.

 
 By: DruidPadj : January 26th, 2016-16:32
Anyone would have expected (and reasonably so) AQ to hold onto the watch until everyone with an interest in this matter weighed in. AQ not only returned the watch to someone with questionable rights to it; they did so surreptitiously. And frankly, what AQ... 

Keep the emotion out of the issue

 
 By: Nutellabear : January 27th, 2016-19:51
I understand your feelings but it needs to be kept in the context of a business decision. Antiquorum is an auction house, a business, not a judicial organization able or bound to judge a point of law. And that is exactly what property ownership is — issue... 

I am curious what you think...

 
 By: CR : January 28th, 2016-06:32
Do you think Antiquorum should disclose the consignor's identity to Nico right now? If not, then under what circumstances (if any) short of a court order do you think Antiquorum should disclose the consignor's identity, and to whom? Also, before concludin... 

Every point you make suggests Antiquorum should have held onto the watch.

 
 By: DruidPadj : January 28th, 2016-09:16
They didn't run from the issue; they created the issue.

That's THE point. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : January 29th, 2016-14:02

With all due respect…

 
 By: sc16 : January 28th, 2016-20:21
Imho, I do believe you are missing the point here as AQ just needed to do one thing and one thing only…. Once AQ found out that the item could potentially be stolen, the only thing AQ needed to do was to contact the local police authorities and have the i... 

Exactly! [nt]

 
 By: DruidPadj : January 29th, 2016-05:46

I understand your comments, very well, but in my original post, I just put facts, only facts.

 
 By: amanico : January 19th, 2016-22:49
And of course I was in relation with Aq first. Asked them to return my watch. At least, they could have asked to the local authorities what to do, it would have been the correct thing to do. My insurance company didn't cover me, and I provided to Aq all t... 

Sorry my friend... F Antiquorum.

 
 By: eric_s : January 19th, 2016-01:47
Ethical conduct should be one of the hallmarks of an auction house that works with valuable items and where provenance is crucial to their reputation. Clearly AQ doesn\'t give a crap about any of that. Point noted. Won\'t consign not buy from them. How do... 

I'm very sorry to hear about this. I truly hope you get your watch back...

 
 By: SRG : January 28th, 2016-21:39
On Antiquorum and Timezone - I believe Antiquorum owns Timezone.com , so you can see where they might not want posts about this on their site. This is all so unfortunate. They should have notified the authors before sending the watch back to the consi... 

A precedent case in 2014...

 
 By: Horologically_minded : February 23rd, 2016-22:40
That could perhaps explain why AQ didn't want to pursue the matter in HK=( news.asiaone.com

I don't even know what kind of paper the consignor produced...While I sent all the papers

 
 By: amanico : February 23rd, 2016-22:45
To Aq... Thanks for the link, my friend. Nicolas

Sorry

 
 By: coz : February 26th, 2016-07:09
I just read your terrible story. I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope fate turns quick and you're reunited soon.

Here is an article about this...

 
 By: CR : May 22nd, 2016-10:32
... that I hadn't seen before. Click here .

Thumbs up!

 
 By: kolosstt : May 22nd, 2016-23:37
I read the article few days back and truly appreciate the sites\'s contribution to bring the news and information into the watch community. IMHO there should really be more doing that. The watch world is just another business and not everything is nice an... 

Antiquorum

 
 By: Shanwick777 : March 28th, 2017-04:46
I am so sorry to hear about this, (almost a year later, while searching posts about this dubious company for my own recent post, "Antiquorum - Seller Beware". I don't understand how they can continue to operate with so much disregard for the people who ha... 

I saw your post on the Public Forum a few days ago and am glad you found this thread...

 
 By: CR : March 28th, 2017-04:56
... though unfortunately too late. The buyer of Nico's watch posted his story here . He returned the watch to Antiquorum immediately after he discovered it was stolen. Antiquorum was VERY slow to return his money and in fact he had to threaten Antiquorum ... 

Thanks. Excellent article [nt]

 
 By: jim vancouver : March 29th, 2017-10:31

support

 
 By: Gelato Monster : March 29th, 2017-17:06
Wow. I am so sorry for your loss. May you blessed with more beautiful watch as a replacement I will definitely not buy/supported antiquoxxx any more

Beware of Antiquorum-

 
 By: HansL : May 27th, 2017-09:38
Hello Nico and all, I did not aware of this post before otherwise I will stay away from Antiquorum in the recent Geneva auction on 14th May 2017. I was looking for Langematik Anniversary a while and noticed that Antiquorum 14th May 2017 auction has one, I... 

I am sorry for you, Hanst, but not at all surprised.

 
 By: CR : May 27th, 2017-21:36
I'm glad you got most of your money back.

Ridiculous behavior

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-02:58
It is a pity when you buy a product worth of a car and receive utterly poor service. Did you sign a contract on the purchase? As for me you can sue them.

As mentioned, their Terms and Conditions have stated that they have absolute full right to determine the final winner, do you think that they believe contract?

 
 By: HansL : May 28th, 2017-12:28
As this auction house does not honor to their words, and senior executive (Managing Director) practice to solve the mistakes they made is to shift the liabilities on their customers, I don't think this auction house Antiquorum will stay long in business f... 

Watch business is a rip off nowadays:)

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-14:36
Negative experience is a valuable experience. If no losses occur let it be.

Well said. [nt]

 
 By: amanico : May 28th, 2017-14:44

If I may give an advice

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-02:16
Your story is sad and full of ignorance from the Antiquorum. I suggest you write an e-mail to the head of Antiquorum with a description of the problem. The management is unlikely to be willing to bear reputation risks so it might actually move forward you... 

I was dealing with their Management Director in Switzerland already and with such confused internal structure, do you think they care about their reputations?

 
 By: HansL : May 28th, 2017-12:08
I was dealing with their Management Director in Switzerland already and I dont think there is any use for making any complaint. This was my first time to place bid in this auction house, so I don't think that my double confirmations about my status with t... 

I mean the head of Antiquorum (CEO), not managing directors.

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-14:35
As my experience suggest any major problem that is not solvable with regular employees shall be escalated to the top. In such case your issue will be likely solved or you will receive a definite negative response.

It seems that all watch auction business is a shady bubble to be avoided.

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-14:39
I suppose it would be great if someone covered this topic on the forum.

I meant the whole auction business:)

 
 By: Alex25 : May 28th, 2017-14:47
To the day I wrote your post I was skeptical about auctions. Now I have a negative attitude.

This story still makes me sick...I won't buy from Antiquorum over concerns of proper title..

 
 By: eric_s : June 12th, 2017-18:53
As you said, what evidence did they receive from the other side that they were the legal owners of the watch... I still hope one day you will get this one back...

Seems like there is no more flow up or update from them

 
 By: HansL : October 22nd, 2017-09:04
Even though they keep promoting heavily, updating the new structure of having the new team, I will definitely stay away from them cos the M.D. is the same guy from Switzerland. Really disappointed about Antiquorum! Nico, any news from you? Still no respon... 

Support of Nico

 
 By: HansL : October 23rd, 2017-06:09
Definitely I think there is a need to have a board to keep reminding all users to avoid this auction house. To me, I hope that i can create more noise and awareness about this auction house practice...very unprofessional and unethical.... Regards Hans

I'm sorry to hear your story Nicolas!

 
 By: Langeholic : October 22nd, 2017-09:24
Shame on them, what a poor excuse for an auction house. Unfortunately they have been on the decline for sometime, but your story is very upsetting and displays the unprofessionalism of some brands. I for one will not use them again.

I do think there is a need to clean up those people from top down, my story with the Geneva branch MD sounds like a joke. I still think we all should stay away from this Auction house

 
 By: HansL : April 30th, 2018-05:38
My experiences with other two auction houses such as Christie and Sotheby are more professional and transactions are done clean and clear. If Antiquorum finally treats both Nico and my case in a professional way, they should take actions immediately to su... 

I will NEVER do business with them.

 
 By: NautNut : May 18th, 2018-06:16
if it was me I would do WHATEVER I could to make their life at a minimum miserable

Im sorry to read this. I never knew antiquorum

 
 By: JLG22 : May 19th, 2018-05:27
Did such things. And i'm sorry you lost 22 watches on the same night. That must be painful. You didn't keep them in a safe? Was your story on the news?

Oh that's sad.

 
 By: JLG22 : May 20th, 2018-10:37
So the thieves must have known you brought them home. In all cases now that you know your watch is with antiquorum, can't the police trace back sold it to antiquorum and how this person got it etc in a way to climb all the way to the orignal thief. Ne ser... 

Deplorable behavior

 
 By: Pedro_Ramos : May 19th, 2018-06:56
Thanks for advice, will not do business with this people

Even they have restructed the organization, want to have more better deals, still those people are there and I dont really see any improvement in their way of practices...

 
 By: HansL : November 9th, 2018-00:45
Why their CEO does not step in solving this topic for Nico cos it has been three years ago? My experience with this company was a joke. No matter how they put their money on marketing, collectors or even first time buyer should stay away from them!! Just ... 

Staying away is very good advice!

 
 By: patrick_y : November 9th, 2018-13:15
And many people have stayed away!

Me neither, sadly... [nt]

 
 By: amanico : November 9th, 2018-17:10